Take Two Sues 3D Realms

[Booflax]

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

(do you prefer 2D SNES lameness? Crapanese 2D RPGs?)

Nice to see the younger generations appreciate Duke as well.

[3dwizzard]

Originally Posted by Booflax

Nice to see the younger generations appreciate Duke as well.

The younger generation seems that it can't respect the best consoles ever made. That is very sad!

[Derfernet]

Originally Posted by Drazula

There is such anger across the net over this that people will boycott anything with the name Apogee plastered on it.

I've seen an equal amount of hatred on both sides (maybe even more towards T2).

[Drazula]

Originally Posted by Derfernet

I've seen an equal amount of hatred on both sides (maybe even more towards T2).

You have to look beyond Shacknews. Try Bluesnews, Eurogamer, heck ANY game site following this news.

[Mountain Man]

Originally Posted by Drazula

3. With that, I can't see George B showing his face in gaming again. I can't believe I am saying this, but he is more despised than John Romero. I can't see anyway he can change that. The more quiet GB remains, the angrier people are getting. Will Scott distance himself from George to salvage something out of this mess? It is not outside the realm of possibilities.

People were saying the same thing about Bill Roper after his Hellgate: London cock-up, yet within a couple of months he landed himself a cushy job with Cryptic Studios as an executive producer of Champions Online. The gaming industry isn't the same beast it was during Diakatana-gate.

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by 3dwizzard

The younger generation seems that it can't respect the best consoles ever made. That is very sad!

Little off topic but which do you think is the best? I always have to say snes and atari 2600 > computers and current consoles.

[Stewwy]

You know, I find both sides on these forums who are speaking in terms of absolutes to be head scratching.

Face value says - it is what it is. 3DR out of cash. T2 sueing. Etc. I'd say that's the 90% answer. There is still that nagging 10% in the back of my mind that says this could all be a publicity stunt.

I mean honestly it probably done. Stick a fork in it.

But to get ANY hype for this game outside of these forums, 3DR would have to do something......drastic....to get the word out and to get people to give a crap. And knowing 3DR as we do, or used to, I wouldn't put it past them to pull a stunt like this. Sure the court docs are real. All the more to make it seem real and pull off a hoax. If 3DR was going to pull a big hype fiesta, T2 would be involved in the conspiracy. The only sticking point to this in my mind is the poor people involved as employees at 3DR. They obviously either aren't in on the hoax, which makes it cruel or it is what it is and they just got shafted, which sucks as well, especially in this economy.

Either way, time will tell.

[3dwizzard]

Originally Posted by Stewwy

You know, I find both sides on these forums who are speaking in terms of absolutes to be head scratching.

Face value says - it is what it is. 3DR out of cash. T2 sueing. Etc. I'd say that's the 90% answer. There is still that nagging 10% in the back of my mind that says this could all be a publicity stunt.

I mean honestly it probably done. Stick a fork in it.

But to get ANY hype for this game outside of these forums, 3DR would have to do something......drastic....to get the word out and to get people to give a crap. And knowing 3DR as we do, or used to, I wouldn't put it past them to pull a stunt like this. Sure the court docs are real. All the more to make it seem real and pull off a hoax. If 3DR was going to pull a big hype fiesta, T2 would be involved in the conspiracy. The only sticking point to this in my mind is the poor people involved as employees at 3DR. They obviously either aren't in on the hoax, which makes it cruel or it is what it is and they just got shafted, which sucks as well, especially in this economy.

Either way, time will tell.

DUDE!
If this is marketing, trust me on this one when I will say, it will NEVER be REVEALED as a joke.
It has long passed the point of joking or the point where it could safely be revealed as EVEN a bad joke.
If it would be revealed as a joke right now in this second under my post. It would already be complete suicide for them!
Jokes are not done up to the point where they end up here on THIS site.
http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webc...ate=06/04/2009
Those are not jokes anymore!
That is real law stuff and real law stuff does not conspire jokes for any amount of money, nor for any celebrity or tv show, especially for marketing.
If Scott or George would have tried to pull this one with the complicity of that place, they would even get convicted for thinking of such stuff!
So I say yet again! There is no way in hell this is being a joke. If the workers were laid off is either because they did a shitty game or because they finished the game and this is the biggest marketing strategy ever made by a company(these are the only 2 reasons I can think of besides the official reason). Or because what is being said about lack of funds is real, which is much more common to happen in a business. It would be even more bs than microsoft can cook up for one of their shitty products. The only way this could still be marketing even with those documents is if their publisher take-two made a deal with them, to sue them on something that will end fast and also asked them to dismantle their company to make room for a new one.
So for all we know, 3drealms could win the trial very easy and ask for money from take-two in court for calumniation and for loosing their time and hurting their company. And take-two will happily give them how much they want and end the trial. With the money they will get from take-two they will build duke nukem 5 and publish it with a masked subsidiary of take-two to end up their deal
And that's how they can shake hands behind the curtain with take-two and make some huge publicity, but something tells me take-two would not over complicate their lives with such a thing.

[Drazula]

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

People were saying the same thing about Bill Roper after his Hellgate: London cock-up, yet within a couple of months he landed himself a cushy job with Cryptic Studios as an executive producer of Champions Online. The gaming industry isn't the same beast it was during Diakatana-gate.

Since I have no clue who you are talking about or what happened with Hellgate, I can say I hope you are right but I doubt it. Duke is on a whole different level than Hellgate. This is much MUCH bigger. I think you are way underestimating the backlash.

He killed Duke. He's the O.J. of gaming. Or more accurately, Lee Harvey Oswald, as this was game assassination. [Dramatic, am I not?]

[Joel]

Originally Posted by Drazula

He killed Duke. He's the O.J. of gaming. Or more accurately, Lee Harvey Oswald, as this was game assassination. [Dramatic, am I not?]

No....NO!!!!!! There had to have been a second shooter!!!!

[Scream]

So who's gonna be Jack Ruby?

[randir14]

Still no comment from George...along with Scott Miller posting on Shacknews saying they would've sold the Duke IP if Take2 gave them 30 million. How do you superfans feel knowing 3DR doesn't give a shit about you or Duke?

[Duke's New Chainsaw]

Yes please do tell!

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by Alexander

Ah, so true
AND.. before I forget, Bioshock wasn't made by Take2 at all. The company Irrational Games developed it and Take 2 bought the company
with it's games in 2006

Take2 paid $12 mil to Infogrames for the publishing rights, who in turn got them from GT Interactive originally. So, Take2 wasn't to be the publisher of DNF either, by that rationale? I don't follow the logic there.

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Stewwy

You know, I find both sides on these forums who are speaking in terms of absolutes to be head scratching.

Face value says - it is what it is. 3DR out of cash. T2 sueing. Etc. I'd say that's the 90% answer. There is still that nagging 10% in the back of my mind that says this could all be a publicity stunt.

I'm going to cut the quote off right there. The lawsuit was filed in Manhattan by a real law firm. If this was done as a publicity stunt and actually goes to court, they'll find themselves in contempt real fast. That being said, yes, they could file and then "settle out of court" and drop the case in which case a publicity stunt is a possibility. But a stunt like this would have to violate so many existing laws that any sensible businessmen would never seriously consider it. The thought of any and all profits from the game being sucked away into the legal system would be enough to stop that train of thought cold, IMO.

Originally Posted by randir14

Still no comment from George...along with Scott Miller posting on Shacknews saying they would've sold the Duke IP if Take2 gave them 30 million. How do you superfans feel knowing 3DR doesn't give a shit about you or Duke?

He said they would have taken the deal, finished DNF and then created a new IP with the cash left over. Makes perfect sense. How does this mean 3DR doesn't give a shit about the fans if they took the cash, finished DNF, were able to keep their entire staff employed, and came up with a new IP with the balance of the $30 mil? Because they would dare to sell the IP if it would keep their business afloat?

I don't get it, but then again I've never considered myself a "superfan".. I always thought "superfans" were reserved for the "Super Friends" cartoon.

Originally Posted by Drazula

A few things:

I cannot even see how Apogee can stay in business. There is such anger across the net over this that people will boycott anything with the name Apogee plastered on it. 3DR/Apogee is a pariah. They may have to re-invent themselves under a new name.

Good Old Games #2 bestseller of the week is 'Duke Nukem 3D: Atomic Edition'. 'nuff said.
http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/

[TonyPessimist]

Originally Posted by randir14

Still no comment from George...along with Scott Miller posting on Shacknews saying they would've sold the Duke IP if Take2 gave them 30 million. How do you superfans feel knowing 3DR doesn't give a shit about you or Duke?

Yeah! Where's the fu*** is George anyway ?!? He's the father of Duke Nukem, right?

Why did he disappear like that?? Afraid of the court or the fans?

[Derfernet]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

Good Old Games #2 bestseller of the week is 'Duke Nukem 3D: Atomic Edition'. 'nuff said.
http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/

I bought it yesterday :P
I imagine a lot of fans are doing it as some sort of last ditch effort to support 3DR.

[Duke's New Chainsaw]

That's sad.

[Derfernet]

Originally Posted by Duke's New Chainsaw

That's sad.

?????

[Tualmasok]

No word from George, still...

When the one guy that harped on for years that we would be able to play the game eventually falls silent... Well.

He can't even manage a public statment, how can we expect him to manage 3D Realms?

---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------

LOL

burden of proof, countersue!, death to take 2, dnf is gone, dumb ppl, dumbest mfers ever, f u take 2, go george go!, h8trs stfu, iq 40 guys here, like a boss, lock this thread, pigtake2, stfu imo, take 2 = stfu, take 2 mofos, take 2hit, take two = >, take two = scumbag, take-two rules

Gotta love the tags!

[Jezza]

Originally Posted by Drazula

2. I cannot even see how Apogee can stay in business. There is such anger across the net over this that people will boycott anything with the name Apogee plastered on it. 3DR/Apogee is a pariah. They may have to re-invent themselves under a new name.

That would be rather unfair to Apogee LLC, who are releasing the Duke Nukem Trilogy games and have nothing to do with Apogee Ltd. except a licensing deal for the Duke name on the Trilogy.

[Firstperson]

Originally Posted by Tualmasok

No word from George, still...

Scott prob told him to STFU.

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by Tualmasok

No word from George, still...

Originally Posted by Firstperson

Scott prob told him to STFU.

If so, I'd have to say that was a wise decision based on George's past record. Talk about burning your bridges..

[naddie]

Originally Posted by Derfernet

I bought it yesterday :P
I imagine a lot of fans are doing it as some sort of last ditch effort to support 3DR.

If it will help 3DR, I will buy Duke Nukem 3D and Manhattan Project through GOG.com

[Swetsenegger]

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8037688.stm

Thats indirect

Originally Posted by 3rdmillhouse

Whaddya mean "source"? Where have you been for the last 10 days? Pluto?

The only think I have seen CONFIRMED is 3drealms closing. The reason why is not known to me. You do know more?

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

No, he must be one of those who believe it's all a marketing ploy.

No, I base my replies on the facts, not on fiction like you.

[Duke's New Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by naddie

If it will help 3DR, I will buy Duke Nukem 3D and Manhattan Project through GOG.com

It's really too late for that and it's not like they would get much out of it.

3DR is closed.

If they need funds, it's going to be millions of dollars.

[Candyman]

Originally Posted by Swetsenegger

No, I base my replies on the facts, not on fiction like you.

Really? Is this your post?

Originally Posted by Swetsenegger

Wouldn't it be funny if 3drealms actually developed two titels.

Duke Nukem Forever which is not even close to be finished and a entirely different duke nukem titel, which IS finished and will be released with another publisher

Facts.. not fiction! Right!

[Joel]

Originally Posted by randir14

Still no comment from George...along with Scott Miller posting on Shacknews saying they would've sold the Duke IP if Take2 gave them 30 million. How do you superfans feel knowing 3DR doesn't give a shit about you or Duke?

Huh? They're running a multi-million dollar organisation. They care about their business decisions, profit margins, product and business profile...all that is gone now. Of course they're not thinking about DNF or its fans...because it doesn't exist anymore. They're doing what any rationally minded business person would do in this scenario:

1) Make steps to prevent personal bankruptcy

2) Find new ways to finance their lifestyle

3) Finding ways to protect themselves legally

Would you really give a toss about fandom and an incomplete game if your organisation of over a decade went down the drain overnight? I'd be thinking about where my meals are coming from for the next month more than anything. Sure, i'd try to find ways to get the game on shelf and scrape in some last profit, but there's a much bigger picture at play than a computer game.

I can't believe people are STILL trying to flesh out the dynamics between expectations of DNF and fan disappointment.

No, i'm not a 3DR/DNF ultra-fan. I'm simply recognising 3DR and DNF for what it is: it's a business. The goal of any business is to make money whether that be a business in hairdressing, sandwitch making, legal representation, acting, dancing, providing aid for third world or producing computer games. No matter what the industry is, the mindset is still the same. Personally, it cost me nothing to wait for DNF nor is it costing me a dime that i'll never be playing the game. What's done is done (no pun intended). If George and whoever has been a bit silent, i'm sure there's a reason for it that is being dictated by the legal and financial nature of what is going on. Look at ENRON...the truth about that didn't come out overnight. Sure, it's a completely different organisation structure and approach...but again, it's a business.

[Swetsenegger]

Originally Posted by Candyman

Really? Is this your post?


Facts.. not fiction! Right!

Yes..., context is a bitch for the retarded.....

[Altered Reality]

Originally Posted by gungriffon geona

Philistines like these are the reason good games don't exist anymore. You don't WANT to be a philistine, do you?

Nostalgics like YOU are the reason there are flames on forums with people dumping shit on perfectly good games that happen not to be old like the games nostalgics like.

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by Swetsenegger

Yes..., context is a bitch for the retarded.....

Let's try to play nice kids.. mumble the direct insults to yourself and lets not see them in print. Otherwise one of the nice moderators is going to come along and slam a lock on this thread. Or do you really want to prove the theory that it's impossible to have an intelligent discussion on the internet?

[Alexander]

IMO, I find it pretty sad how people react so damn agressive towards 3DRealms.
Sure, the game took a long long time to develop and it's still flying around in pieces probably... But I think it was worth it. All the efford they put in that project to make it look and FEEL good is just intence and I have never seen anything like it.
So yes, I do believe such an attempt should be at least greeted with a little respect.
I know it's easy for people like us to be upset and totally disappointed about the situation. But maybe we should think about George's personal goal on this one. What he tried to achieve with this project. We're talking about material you don't see that often anymore...

Besides, If it wasn't for their efford, Take 2 wouldn't have much to sue for.

[Luther Blissett]

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

Nostalgics like YOU are the reason there are flames on forums with people dumping shit on perfectly good games that happen not to be old like the games nostalgics like.

well it s not about nostalgia

maybe you were just a little snotty brat when SNES was out...or maybe you were still in your dad's nutsacks

not your fault really, for example..i was i n my dad's nutsacks when atari 2600 came out.
Do i feel the need to go out there on atariage.com and bash it saying it s unplayable crap ( which it is not , by the way , i like A2600 )?

No , because i know better when to STFU and listen to the older guys that lived the era.

Snes was not lame, well maybe you could have liked the genesis more ( like i did ) or maybe you could have been an arcade junkie but still... snes was a GREAT system, surely leaps above the things we get today ( this doesn't mean i don't own all the three next gen systems )
JRPGs are not CRAP like you say.

I don't like RTS games , do i feel the need go out there saying Starcraft is a POS just because it s an RTS?

I would look like an ass, see?
Maybe YOU don't like JRPGs , that doesn't mean they are "crapanese" games ( nice racial insult too, very mature )

[Candyman]

Originally Posted by Alexander

I know it's easy for people like us to be upset and totally disappointed about the situation. But maybe we should think about George's personal goal on this one. What he tried to achieve with this project. We're talking about material you don't see that often anymore...

Besides, If it wasn't for their efford, Take 2 wouldn't have much to sue for.

Specifically about George B., i think that it is not necessary to remind you how many times he was assuring everybody that the game will be released, and other comments. I think you remember, and quotes are not necessary.

In my opinion, he is no longer respected (at least by me) not because his company failed to delivery the game, but MOSTLY because he was b**l s**ting the whole gaming industry. He didn't respect his fans, allthough in gaming industry, fans are the ones who keep game companies afloat, by buying their games!!!! I think developers owe a little respect to their fanbase!

And btw, i just don't buy it that money just went dry like this. The reason must be something else, or at least not only the funding.

Allthough i dont want it, i'm starting to believe that they never had any intention to release the game.

[Caine]

Originally Posted by Candyman

Specifically about George B., i think that it is not necessary to remind you how many times he was assuring everybody that the game will be released, and other comments. I think you remember, and quotes are not necessary.

In my opinion, he is no longer respected (at least by me) not because his company failed to delivery the game, but MOSTLY because he was b**l s**ting the whole gaming industry. He didn't respect his fans, allthough in gaming industry, fans are the ones who keep game companies afloat, by buying their games!!!! I think developers owe a little respect to their fanbase!

And btw, i just don't buy it that money just went dry like this. The reason must be something else, or at least not only the funding.

Allthough i dont want it, i'm starting to believe that they never had any intention to release the game.

yeah well iwould buy the game of course but true post!

[Zwolf]

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

Nostalgics like YOU are the reason there are flames on forums with people dumping shit on perfectly good games that happen not to be old like the games nostalgics like.

Can't both side just shut up? There was good old games and there is good new games for different reasons. Now if you can't accept the facts there was already good games in 2D (so chrono trigger is shitty in your opinion?) and there is good games now (well actually nothing in my tastes since ages but I wait Starcraft 2 so...) you're all retarded.


And stop making assumptions about the company being closed because of lack of funds, it's just random journalist talk we saw again and again and again on the internet and it's probably inexact as all the crap we read about T2 giving 12 M to 3DR (and they call themselves journalists?).
I bet nobody have a clue here about what was 3DR real financial state except GB and Scott Miller. And we all know that the closure was so sudden that most people of the company were astonished and it was way after GB met the T2 guys. So there is probably another reason which have much more sense and that we can't figure out (and I don't think anymore about a publicity stunt since I heard about the sueing).

At the contrary of what emo people seem to think nobody will really give a f... about GB being an evil bastard. I read tons of complain now but if the game is released and is good I bet 99% of the complainers will still get it. You would give up the pleasure to play a great game just to make a point against a guy you're pissed at and who doesn't even know you? Oh god, his company gonna lose 20$ on this one, what a great lesson he gonna get.
And I doubt they gonna definitively give up on releasing DNF cause at the moment computers are far away to progress as quickly as few years ago and we just got a new generation of video game consoles so we won't see major changes in graphics before ages. So they have plenty of time to finish it and release it and as I suppose GB and Scott Miller are (something like twisted and evil I suppose) I doubt they are definitively broke. It's not only about passion, there is potential to get millions from the game. If they succeeded to sell 1 M Prey how many DNF copies do you think they can sell? Jace Hall himself was positively impressed by the game and it was 1 year ago. And the guy founded Monolith!
Obviously the leaks we got from the artists weren't in the plans of GB and he promptly asked the guys to remove the materials before he personally come to kick their ass. But it's not a so bad thing for him as now everybody know DNF really exist and it's not just a crap pile of random ideas, it has a level design.

And if you're not happy about the graphics go back playing Crysis, who need fun when we have awesome graphics LOLZ ROFL LMAO.
Did you looked at the damn pigs jumping everywhere? Who could not enjoy that? That's the freakin best monster animation I never seen.

By the way I'm not a native english speaker so if my grammar is inexact correct mentally.

[Candyman]

Originally Posted by Zwolf

And if you're not happy about the graphics go back playing Crysis, who need fun when we have awesome graphics LOLZ ROFL LMAO.
Did you looked at the damn pigs jumping everywhere? Who could not enjoy that? That's the freakin best monster animation I never seen.[/I]

I agree with you about the fact that the game looked really nice in the leaked videos. That's why it is a damn shame that it will not be released (at least not until the court has made a decision or if there will be some agreement out of the court).
Personally i dont believe anymore that DNF will be released.. unless if the whole incident happened for legal reasons and not because of funding. If this is the case, then after the issue has been resolved maybe DNF development will restart.

P.S. I was under the impression that Joe Siegler confirmed that the closure was because of funding, and not just confirmed the closure in general. Maybe i didn't understood...

[Destructor]

It's funny that George could keep going to work and living the life for 12 years without delivering anything. I have a lot of admiration for him actually. Sure, the way things ended up weren't probably desirable; but still running a non performing studio for 12 years is pretty damn good in my books. He kept people employed and ALMOST delivered a ******* huge game.

It's a pity that 3D Realms didn't get more money from Prey. It was successful but I don't think it was the big hit like Max Payne was, which in addition to the huge profits gained from Duke Nukem 3D and consequent spin offs was able to keep the company WIDing for so long. (until the very end actually )

[Joel]

Originally Posted by Candyman

Specifically about George B., i think that it is not necessary to remind you how many times he was assuring everybody that the game will be released...

In my opinion, he is no longer respected (at least by me) not because his company failed to delivery the game, but MOSTLY because he was b**l s**ting the whole gaming industry. He didn't respect his fans, allthough in gaming industry, fans are the ones who keep game companies afloat, by buying their games!!!! I think developers owe a little respect to their fanbase!

I agree with you that he constantly gave us assurances that the game would be released. I also agree that he has probably lost a lot of respect amongst gaming developers and fans. But, I can't agree with the fact that he did not respect the fans. This is not you that I am personally debating with either because I have heard a LOT of people over the last couple of weeks expressing that George "didn't respect his fans".

Remember, the whole "when it's done" thing and the notion of releasing media when they felt was appropriate was a business decision. Yes, a business decision that has amounted to the current state of 3DR. Point being, George and the team didn't impose WID as a means of telling the fans to keep their mouths shut, they did it because they felt it would be better in the long run. There are MANY quotes which support this such as in the FAQ where it concerns development time, release dates and preview media such as screenshots and videos. If they wanted to disrespect their fans, there's moer direct and short term ways of doing it than over a period of 12 years.

[Caine]

Originally Posted by Joel

I agree with you that he constantly gave us assurances that the game would be released. I also agree that he has probably lost a lot of respect amongst gaming developers and fans. But, I can't agree with the fact that he did not respect the fans. This is not you that I am personally debating with either because I have heard a LOT of people over the last couple of weeks expressing that George "didn't respect his fans".

Remember, the whole "when it's done" thing and the notion of releasing media when they felt was appropriate was a business decision. Yes, a business decision that has amounted to the current state of 3DR. Point being, George and the team didn't impose WID as a means of telling the fans to keep their mouths shut, they did it because they felt it would be better in the long run. There are MANY quotes which support this such as in the FAQ where it concerns development time, release dates and preview media such as screenshots and videos. If they wanted to disrespect their fans, there's moer direct and short term ways of doing it than over a period of 12 years.

how did he respect the fans? with some tidbits, silence and just big talk? no product in 12 years?

[Candyman]

Originally Posted by Joel

I agree with you that he constantly gave us assurances that the game would be released. I also agree that he has probably lost a lot of respect amongst gaming developers and fans. But, I can't agree with the fact that he did not respect the fans. This is not you that I am personally debating with either because I have heard a LOT of people over the last couple of weeks expressing that George "didn't respect his fans".

Remember, the whole "when it's done" thing and the notion of releasing media when they felt was appropriate was a business decision. Yes, a business decision that has amounted to the current state of 3DR. Point being, George and the team didn't impose WID as a means of telling the fans to keep their mouths shut, they did it because they felt it would be better in the long run. There are MANY quotes which support this such as in the FAQ where it concerns development time, release dates and preview media such as screenshots and videos. If they wanted to disrespect their fans, there's moer direct and short term ways of doing it than over a period of 12 years.

When i said he showed no respect, i am not only talking about the WID, the comments, etc. I also meant that until now he hasn't made a statement.
I read here many people saying that he is very busy these days with all that fiasco. But in any case, i think at least he owes some explanations to these people who payed for 3drealms games (developed or just published), who faithfully waited all those years for DnF and listening to Broussard like he was "god" (hope you understand how i mean this), and for contributing generally through these forums.

For God's shake we do not even know if the game will be released or not some day. All i want to hear is something like "DnF is dead!" or "DnF will continue developing" from him.
That's all... It has nothing to do with release dates or anything. I want to know this simple thing. Am i asking so much?

Originally Posted by Joel

This is not you that I am personally debating with either because I have heard a LOT of people over the last couple of weeks expressing that George "didn't respect his fans".

Dont worry about it, we're just having a conversation!