Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers...

Duke Rocks · 10-24-2005, 09:54 PM

I don't know if this issue has been addressed before, but I was wondering how 3DR will deal with the repetitive use of the same enemy model and skin.

For example, when you play many FPS games you run into many bad guys that look exactly alike; sometimes, even in the exact same area!!

Now I don't expect 3DR to build 100s of different models for every single enemy you encounter, but I was just wondering if there will be many instances in the game where you see identical foes.

It may not be a huge deal, but it takes away from the experience slightly for me, so I was wondering if DNF will be more "believable" in this area than other games.

George?

Kalki · 10-24-2005, 10:23 PM

Somebody on this forum once said that it only applies to human (or human-like) characters. Apparently, you can have as many octabrain clones as you want but each human being must look different.

avatar_58 · 10-24-2005, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Kalki said:
Somebody on this forum once said that it only applies to human (or human-like) characters. Apparently, you can have as many octabrain clones as you want but each human being must look different.

I like how Goldeneye and Perfect Dark handled this. Having different faces made it interesting (although, it was possible to see duplicates in one screen, but it wasn't too often).

Water12356 · 10-24-2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

avatar_58 said:

Quote:

Kalki said:
Somebody on this forum once said that it only applies to human (or human-like) characters. Apparently, you can have as many octabrain clones as you want but each human being must look different.

I like how Goldeneye and Perfect Dark handled this. Having different faces made it interesting (although, it was possible to see duplicates in one screen, but it wasn't too often).

Yea that was good to see.

Duke Rocks · 10-24-2005, 11:37 PM

Was it a staff member that said this?

Because if they can at least do as you said (make it only with humans) I'd be happy for the most part.

I agree that other enemies aren't as important cuz they are a different species and most other species (other than humans) look exactly alike-to us people, at least.

For instance, if there was going to be a heard of bears, monkeys, elephants, or basically any other animal, it wouldn't matter if they were all the same skin and model, because that is the way they look in real life.

I guess 3DR is assuming that the same thing applies to ficticious beasts such as Octabrains and Pigcops.

But I wouldn't mind seeing an occasional variety on the attire/size/shape of these monsters. Its things like this that keep players playing and I'm sure 3DR realizes this.

jaypo90 · 10-24-2005, 11:37 PM

Personally, it doesn't matter to me. It'd be a nice touch seeing different faces (for human enemies), but I'd be satisfied if they just to gave them a helmet or mask of some sort. Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army.

The most recent reference material (2001 trailer

) had some soldiers in it right? Didn't they all have different faces already? If they were, would it really be a leap of faith to say they're at least planning to put a few different faces for similar enemies/npcs?

But would having a clone army really negatively affect the experience for you?

Kalki · 10-24-2005, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Duke Rocks said:
Was it a staff member that said this?

Because if they can at least do as you said (make it only with humans) I'd be happy for the most part.

No it was someone else, but I believe George may have said something in agreement. You know, I better not say anything further without being sure. It's a non-info issue so I'm sure he'll come along and set the record straight anyway.

I think you can take comfort in the fact that the EDF and NPCs in the '01 video looked mostly different.

DudeMiester · 10-25-2005, 12:34 AM

I think it was because they are using all mo-cap animation, they can't easily make modifiable characters without it looking weird. However, I know there's a trend towards more physically simulated animation, so in next-gen games this should be a non-issue.

hell-angel · 10-25-2005, 12:39 AM

The reason for something like this is simple, not enough time to make them look different and 99% of the times you will not notice the difference either. I am sure that every soldier that has seen combat can tell you that in the heat of battle they all look the same.

TerminX · 10-25-2005, 12:43 AM

Quote:

jaypo90 said:
Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army.

Er... dude, the F.E.A.R enemies were a clone army.

hell-angel · 10-25-2005, 12:49 AM

Quote:

TerminX said:

Quote:

jaypo90 said:
Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army.

Er... dude, the F.E.A.R enemies were a clone army.

hehe,

Now we know why they all look alike.

Micki! · 10-25-2005, 03:27 AM

Quote:

TerminX said:

Quote:

jaypo90 said:
Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army.

Er... dude, the F.E.A.R enemies were a clone army.

Shouldn't you have made that post with a spoiler..?
Or is it something mentioned already in articles and previews..!? I haven't heard of this yet..!

Tang Lung · 10-25-2005, 04:32 AM

I think it's known anyway..I've not been following F.E.A.R. atall and I knew that before release.

It would be cool to see something like an advanfced version of the SOF enemies where they each had different hair and facial 'stuff'.

Damien_Azreal · 10-25-2005, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Micki! said:

Quote:

TerminX said:

Quote:

jaypo90 said:
Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army.

Er... dude, the F.E.A.R enemies were a clone army.

Shouldn't you have made that post with a spoiler..?
Or is it something mentioned already in articles and previews..!? I haven't heard of this yet..!

That's been known for some time.

Micki! · 10-25-2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Damien_Azreal said:

Quote:

Micki! said:

Quote:

TerminX said:

Quote:

jaypo90 said:
Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army.

Er... dude, the F.E.A.R enemies were a clone army.

Shouldn't you have made that post with a spoiler..?
Or is it something mentioned already in articles and previews..!? I haven't heard of this yet..!

That's been known for some time.

Ok, i was worried about this being some 'plot' thing in the game..!

On topic again; only human NPC's should have different looks..! (in form of cloths, or faces, etc) But i think this would be unnecessary for Aliens... Unless it has to match with a certain event..! Like burnmarks on skin/clothing when being in a burning building etc which make it seem logical that they look different from others..!

Magnamuz · 10-25-2005, 08:48 AM

Diferent models are not that much of a problem; in Halo there were 2 or 3 models of that deformed humans at the latest chapters and it felt realistic not to have the same ****lng monster chasing you all over the level.

This can be applied to little things such as Pig Cops with broken tooth, or more hairy crests, or big/small brained Octobrains.

I hope this is already implemented (or to-be)

Cerberus_e · 10-25-2005, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Micki! said:

Quote:

TerminX said:

Quote:

jaypo90 said:
Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army.

Er... dude, the F.E.A.R enemies were a clone army.

Shouldn't you have made that post with a spoiler..?
Or is it something mentioned already in articles and previews..!? I haven't heard of this yet..!

it's in the demo

Micki! · 10-25-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Cerberus_e said:

Quote:

Micki! said:

Quote:

TerminX said:

Quote:

jaypo90 said:
Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army.

Er... dude, the F.E.A.R enemies were a clone army.

Shouldn't you have made that post with a spoiler..?
Or is it something mentioned already in articles and previews..!? I haven't heard of this yet..!

it's in the demo

I haven't tried the demo yet (my PC can't handle it

) But good to know it's no 'Plot' thing..!

swat · 10-25-2005, 12:31 PM

you guys are on about a demo where can i download the demo?

Cerberus_e · 10-25-2005, 12:48 PM

I find it hard to believe you don't know a way to get the demo yourself.

Denz · 10-25-2005, 01:43 PM

Google is your friend.

Combat Chuck · 10-25-2005, 01:45 PM

Quote:

TerminX said:

Quote:

jaypo90 said:
Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army.

Er... dude, the F.E.A.R enemies were a clone army.

I don't know, they all looked pretty different after I was done shooting them

hell-angel · 10-26-2005, 12:29 AM

Quote:

swat said:
you guys are on about a demo where can i download the demo?

www.whatisfear.com is a good place to start.

Zaarin · 10-26-2005, 01:31 AM

I don't see any problem with that the basic enemies are look-a-likes, 'cos in real-life everybody looks allmost the same when dressed into uniform.

I prefer good AI over gazillion different looking enemies.

hell-angel · 10-26-2005, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Zaarin said:
I don't see any problem with that the basic enemies are look-a-likes, 'cos in real-life everybody looks allmost the same when dressed into uniform.

I prefer good AI over gazillion different looking enemies.

I second this.

Although the AI can also be scripted, just as long as it provides a challenge and the scripting is not that obvious.

Sang · 10-26-2005, 06:01 AM

Different skins/models for every enemy you encounter could be cool...If you want your game to be 10 GB.

Cerberus_e · 10-26-2005, 06:28 AM

Quote:

hell-angel said:

Quote:

Zaarin said:
I don't see any problem with that the basic enemies are look-a-likes, 'cos in real-life everybody looks allmost the same when dressed into uniform.

I prefer good AI over gazillion different looking enemies.

I second this.

Although the AI can also be scripted, just as long as it provides a challenge and the scripting is not that obvious.

well, at least a LITTLE bit of AI is necessary, or else you'll end up like in HL2 where they shoot the turrets instead of you when you are holding one in your hands

or when you can hide behind a sodan can when you're holding it in your hands between you and the face of an enemy

Magnamuz · 10-26-2005, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Different skins/models for every enemy you encounter could be cool...If you want your game to be 10 GB.

Disc space is not a problem now a days, and less matters if it's for DNF (plus, the game at this moment it has more than 9 GB of data, so 1 or 2 GB more is the same)

Kristian Joensen · 10-26-2005, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Sang said:
Different skins/models for every enemy you encounter could be cool...If you want your game to be 10 GB.

DNF is already 9,6 GB's so we would only be talking about around 400 MB extra.

SyntaxN · 10-26-2005, 09:36 AM

Different skins for every enemy?
I don´t know how powerfull a machine has to be to run DNF in high settings but that would be a waste of memory imo

It just isn´t necessary, but some variation would be cool, DOOM³ did a right step through offering more than 1 model for an standard enemy

Mr.Sociopath · 10-26-2005, 10:20 AM

some random size enemies/character would be nice.. I don,t remember seeing a game that use that except for the main character(gta:sa for exemple).. but still i'd like to see that..

Sang · 10-26-2005, 10:35 AM

Yes but how much useless, outdated stuff is in there? I'm pretty sure the final thing won't be 10 GB :P

Kristian Joensen · 10-26-2005, 10:44 AM

There is nothing form before 2002 and virtually nothing from before 2003 if that is what you are getting at.

However there are some things which will be removed priorto release, George has said that he can't see culling more than 2-3 GB's.

You also have to remember that they will be adding EVEN more prior to any culling of content.

December Man · 10-26-2005, 03:04 PM

DNF will be around 5-6 GB max.

And humans will have different faces. It's a standard. Monsters don't really have any faces. That's a problem

Kristian Joensen · 10-26-2005, 03:14 PM

There is no reason to think that it will be 5-6 GB.

December Man · 10-26-2005, 03:18 PM

On the other hand, there's no reason to think it will be 10GB.

Kristian Joensen · 10-26-2005, 03:21 PM

Yes there is, the fact that it is 9.6 GB now, that is almost 10GB. They might very well add just as much before release as they will take out, therby leaving the game at almost 10GB, if they add about 400 MB more then they take out then they reach 10 GB exactly.

ZuljinRaynor · 10-26-2005, 03:50 PM

I could care less but if it's like HL were there are only 4 different scientists and one Security Guard + Fat Security Guard. More variation please.

Mr.Sociopath · 10-26-2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Mr.Sociopath said:
some random size enemies/character would be nice.. I don,t remember seeing a game that use that except for the main character(gta:sa for exemple).. but still i'd like to see that..

baff · 10-26-2005, 08:35 PM

They all look the same to me.
get them all to dress up as Imperial Stormtroopers and stand in a convenient line.

10-24-2005, 09:54 PM	#1
Duke Rocks	Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... I don't know if this issue has been addressed before, but I was wondering how 3DR will deal with the repetitive use of the same enemy model and skin. For example, when you play many FPS games you run into many bad guys that look exactly alike; sometimes, even in the exact same area!! Now I don't expect 3DR to build 100s of different models for every single enemy you encounter, but I was just wondering if there will be many instances in the game where you see identical foes. It may not be a huge deal, but it takes away from the experience slightly for me, so I was wondering if DNF will be more "believable" in this area than other games. George?

10-24-2005, 10:23 PM	#2
Kalki	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... Somebody on this forum once said that it only applies to human (or human-like) characters. Apparently, you can have as many octabrain clones as you want but each human being must look different. __________________ "Gentlemen, generations to follow will see us as the first pioneers of the internet. They will look upon our days as those of brave spirits and free ideals - where men were men, women were men and children were the FBI." Free Speech

10-24-2005, 11:37 PM	#5
Duke Rocks	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... Was it a staff member that said this? Because if they can at least do as you said (make it only with humans) I'd be happy for the most part. I agree that other enemies aren't as important cuz they are a different species and most other species (other than humans) look exactly alike-to us people, at least. For instance, if there was going to be a heard of bears, monkeys, elephants, or basically any other animal, it wouldn't matter if they were all the same skin and model, because that is the way they look in real life. I guess 3DR is assuming that the same thing applies to ficticious beasts such as Octabrains and Pigcops. But I wouldn't mind seeing an occasional variety on the attire/size/shape of these monsters. Its things like this that keep players playing and I'm sure 3DR realizes this.

10-24-2005, 11:37 PM	#6
jaypo90	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... Personally, it doesn't matter to me. It'd be a nice touch seeing different faces (for human enemies), but I'd be satisfied if they just to gave them a helmet or mask of some sort. Uniforms (like in F.E.A.R) solve the problem without making it look like a clone army. The most recent reference material (2001 trailer ) had some soldiers in it right? Didn't they all have different faces already? If they were, would it really be a leap of faith to say they're at least planning to put a few different faces for similar enemies/npcs? But would having a clone army really negatively affect the experience for you?

10-25-2005, 12:34 AM	#8
DudeMiester	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... I think it was because they are using all mo-cap animation, they can't easily make modifiable characters without it looking weird. However, I know there's a trend towards more physically simulated animation, so in next-gen games this should be a non-issue. __________________ Forums are the Opiate of the Masses Higher Game -- "Animal fur is renewable, unlike the oil used to make plastic!"

10-25-2005, 12:39 AM	#9
hell-angel	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... The reason for something like this is simple, not enough time to make them look different and 99% of the times you will not notice the difference either. I am sure that every soldier that has seen combat can tell you that in the heat of battle they all look the same.

10-25-2005, 04:32 AM	#13
Tang Lung	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... I think it's known anyway..I've not been following F.E.A.R. atall and I knew that before release. It would be cool to see something like an advanfced version of the SOF enemies where they each had different hair and facial 'stuff'. __________________ "I'd like to begin by saying **** Lance Armstrong" MOON PRINCESS POWER!

10-25-2005, 08:48 AM	#16
Magnamuz	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... Diferent models are not that much of a problem; in Halo there were 2 or 3 models of that deformed humans at the latest chapters and it felt realistic not to have the same ****lng monster chasing you all over the level. This can be applied to little things such as Pig Cops with broken tooth, or more hairy crests, or big/small brained Octobrains. I hope this is already implemented (or to-be) __________________ . BEST GOAL EVER!!!

10-25-2005, 12:31 PM	#19
swat	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... you guys are on about a demo where can i download the demo? __________________ I'm the real swat am not one them damn L.A.R.D pigs (KILLING LARD PIGS SINCE 1996)the age of duke

10-25-2005, 12:48 PM	#20
Cerberus_e	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... I find it hard to believe you don't know a way to get the demo yourself.

10-25-2005, 01:43 PM	#21
Denz	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... Google is your friend. __________________ *crunchy superman said:* 10 years and two complete restarts - that's either one very effective filter, or a whole lotta shit. :D

10-26-2005, 01:31 AM	#24
Zaarin	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... I don't see any problem with that the basic enemies are look-a-likes, 'cos in real-life everybody looks allmost the same when dressed into uniform. I prefer good AI over gazillion different looking enemies. __________________ "Remember kids, if it's fun there's a good chance it's illegal!"

10-26-2005, 06:01 AM	#26
Sang	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... Different skins/models for every enemy you encounter could be cool...If you want your game to be 10 GB. __________________ traB pu kcip

10-26-2005, 09:36 AM	#30
SyntaxN	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... Different skins for every enemy? I don´t know how powerfull a machine has to be to run DNF in high settings but that would be a waste of memory imo It just isn´t necessary, but some variation would be cool, DOOM³ did a right step through offering more than 1 model for an standard enemy

10-26-2005, 10:20 AM	#31
Mr.Sociopath	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... some random size enemies/character would be nice.. I don,t remember seeing a game that use that except for the main character(gta:sa for exemple).. but still i'd like to see that..

10-26-2005, 10:35 AM	#32
Sang	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... Yes but how much useless, outdated stuff is in there? I'm pretty sure the final thing won't be 10 GB :P __________________ traB pu kcip

10-26-2005, 10:44 AM	#33
Kristian Joensen	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... There is nothing form before 2002 and virtually nothing from before 2003 if that is what you are getting at. However there are some things which will be removed priorto release, George has said that he can't see culling more than 2-3 GB's. You also have to remember that they will be adding EVEN more prior to any culling of content. __________________ The Philosophy Of Liberty, Chaos Theory Tachyons, Time Travel, and Divine Omniscience A Refutation of Moral Relativism(Transcript)

10-26-2005, 03:04 PM	#34
December Man	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... DNF will be around 5-6 GB max. And humans will have different faces. It's a standard. Monsters don't really have any faces. That's a problem

10-26-2005, 03:14 PM	#35
Kristian Joensen	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... There is no reason to think that it will be 5-6 GB. __________________ The Philosophy Of Liberty, Chaos Theory Tachyons, Time Travel, and Divine Omniscience A Refutation of Moral Relativism(Transcript)

10-26-2005, 03:18 PM	#36
December Man	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... On the other hand, there's no reason to think it will be 10GB.

10-26-2005, 03:21 PM	#37
Kristian Joensen	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... Yes there is, the fact that it is 9.6 GB now, that is almost 10GB. They might very well add just as much before release as they will take out, therby leaving the game at almost 10GB, if they add about 400 MB more then they take out then they reach 10 GB exactly. __________________ The Philosophy Of Liberty, Chaos Theory Tachyons, Time Travel, and Divine Omniscience A Refutation of Moral Relativism(Transcript)

10-26-2005, 03:50 PM	#38
ZuljinRaynor	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... I could care less but if it's like HL were there are only 4 different scientists and one Security Guard + Fat Security Guard. More variation please. __________________ My vision is augmented.

10-26-2005, 08:35 PM	#40
baff	Re: Killing an enemy and his 10 twin brothers... They all look the same to me. get them all to dress up as Imperial Stormtroopers and stand in a convenient line.