Schadenfreude

[Thewho]

It seems there is a bit of this circulating among the dnf fanbase. Maybe after so many years of not being told anything, and then with the development of the game tripping up on the home strait has turned some fans bitter towards 3dr and George Broussard?

[kj_57701]

I do believe we got a lot of slightly upset people around here. We've been hoping to get something good for years and years, while WID's been in effect. Then, suddenly when we really have high hopes. Crash! Not going to see it. Of course, 3DR not doing so good sucks as well. But it's life. 3DR does not own us anything. It has been our choice to follow this forum and hope to play the games for more than a decade. Nobody is a winner in this deal.

[Wamplet]

Originally Posted by Thewho

It seems there is a bit of this circulating among the dnf fanbase. Maybe after so many years of not being told anything, and then with the development of the game tripping up on the home strait has turned some fans bitter towards 3dr and George Broussard?

I thought it turned them twitter towards George.

[kj_57701]

Oh well! I was really hoping to get to run Duke around a little more. I know that a lot of people are simply p****d off. It was more of a "avoid to much negativity and cause a thread lock". But, now that we're there it does not matter anyway
The project turned out to be a pipe-dream. It feels like a dangling carrot that makes us come back for more. Then when it finally seem we'll get some satisfaction, politics come in and sc**w us.
But, honestly, I never vested anything more that just come into the forum and check out if there's more news. I personally bought (and still have) the original PC Gamer announcing DNF, so I have waited as long as anybody else. The whole deal is just sad. I'm sure that we'll be able to play FPS Duke sometime in the future, but I really think DNF is lost to us. No point in speculating either. It's all Area 51 still.

[WoodenSword]

with Yatta.

Yatta i really understand your emotional attachment to the game, but don't you think you are overreacting??? Your twits to GB are undispicable, imo! Even if you think he screwed this up, i don't think he did it on purpose and this is no way to react, especially you-who many people think very high of you. Moreover, you don't know him personally to judge him.

Anyhow WHAT EXACTLY did he do wrong now (at least after 2006 i mean)? We are not talking about one man's failure. We are talking about a team of OUTSTANDING developers,artists,programmers who at the end were willing to work for free!!They even hired one of the best management experts (Hooks) to get out of the mess. Honestly if you read Trammells blog you will see that the failure is not because of GB's eccentricity but because of BAD LUCK that didn't let them overcome their admitted errors from the past.

[ReadOnly]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

with Yatta.

He's alright. Like many of us.

Yatta i really understand your emotional attachment to the game, but don't you think you are overreacting??? Your twits to GB are undispicable, imo! [/Even if you think he screwed this up, i don't think he did it on purpose and this is no way to react, especially you-who many people think very high of you. Moreover, you don't know him personally to judge him.

George is a public figure. We can judge him based on his actions. Either he did on purpose or not, he still screwed everyone up. And it was not a first time either. George(as a project lead) deserves this kind of treatment. He's shitty project lead. That's a fact.

Anyhow WHAT EXACTLY did he do wrong now (at least after 2006 i mean)?

Mismanaged the project while hyping and teasing 3dr fans. And why don't we count all those other years?

We are not talking about one man's failure.

Yes, we are.

They even hired one of the best management experts (Hooks) to get out of the mess.

The mess didn't materialize out of nowhere. They should have hired Hooks in 2006 and let George play poker.

Honestly if you read Trammells blog you will see that the failure is not because of GB's eccentricity but because of BAD LUCK that didn't let them overcome their admitted errors from the past.

Luck has nothing to do with not letting people overcome their errors in the past. And it was not "theirs" errors to begin with. Most of the staff(Tramells included) were hired in 2006+. Remember that shacknews story about massive team exodus?

[SpinX]

he kicked a mighty foot up our balls, that is a fact...

[Kit]

Originally Posted by Yatta

@georgeb3dr Thoughts: your opinion doesn't matter because you're not jack shit in the game community. (Originally posted yesterday.)

lol Yatta.

[WoodenSword]

Originally Posted by ReadOnly

He's alright. Like many of us.

Yes of course he is.

Originally Posted by ReadOnly

"Mismanaged the project"

Everybody outside 3d realms might say that, but do we really know that? Yes ex devs tell about the development hell DNF was in (including GB). But nobody AFAIK blamed GB personally. Also Trammel Issac said "I said it, their (our) problems were no more insurmountable than the next studio"!

And what's really mismanagement? When you are trying to develop new things and make innovations you are making a risk. Each decision you make poses a risk. Yes, in the end it didn't work out, but is that what we wanted from 3d realms? Not to risk and try new ideas?

When they realized that "its not gonna happen" they tried to wrap up the game and give it to us (cutting is shipping).

Most of the staff(Tramells included) were hired in 2006+. Remember that shacknews story about massive team exodus?

So 3 years are not enough for a team who knew the situation? And GB is the only one to blame for that again? Allen Blum and all the others devs had no responsibility this unfortunate ending? And of course we have proof of that, right?

Originally Posted by ReadOnly

"We are not talking about one man's failure."

Yes, we are.

So...Scott is not to blame? Only GB?

Most of the employees (again great developers) showed respect to GB even if they were fired. I will hold to that.

[ZuljinRaynor]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

So...Scott is not to blame?

I don't think he is since he hasn't been doing stuff within 3DR for a while apparently. His baby is Radar Group.

[ReadOnly]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

Everybody outside 3d realms might say that, but do we really know that?

Yes, wer know. GB was the project lead of a game since 1997. It's his fault that the project was never released in its 12 years of development.

But nobody AFAIK blamed GB personally.

I blame him. And if he was not a 1/2 owner of the 3dRealms he would be out of his position as DNF project lead in no time.

Also Trammel Issac said "I said it, their (our) problems were no more insurmountable than the next studio"!

He came in 2006. I suppose, if he were there from 1998, he wouldn't say this.

And what's really mismanagement? When you are trying to develop new things and make innovations you are making a risk. Each decision you make poses a risk. Yes, in the end it didn't work out, but is that what we wanted from 3d realms? Not to risk and try new ideas?

Dude, the game was in development for freaking 12 years!

When they realized that "its not gonna happen" they tried to wrap up the game and give it to us (cutting is shipping).

They realized that on 12th year of development? Wow.

So 3 years are not enough for a team who knew the situation?

It was enough to develop a game. Especially the one that was already in production with artwark and other stuff.

And GB is the only one to blame for that again?

Mostly.

Allen Blum and all the others devs had no responsibility this unfortunate ending?

He's a level designer. He did what was asked of him. If he couldn't cope with a work he would have been fired. No one can fire George.

So...Scott is not to blame? Only GB?

Yes, only George.

Althought, "we suck" phrase was made by Scott. Well, he just couldn't say "George suck", I guess.

Most of the employees (again great developers) showed respect to GB even if they were fired. I will hold to that.

Maybe he is a good person and all that, but he ruined the project. 12 years of development with no game speak for themselves.

---------- Post added at 10:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by ZuljinRaynor

I don't think he is since he hasn't been doing stuff within 3DR for a while apparently. His baby is Radar Group.

Most likely, Scott was the one who kept ship on the water with the side-projects that had given enough money. To be fair, George also participated in those to some extent.

[Kristian Joensen]

You guys REALLY need to distinguish between George's role as the creative head of the project and George's role as a manager. For example you guys mention the WID attitude, but George has never been under the impression that WID is the way to ship a game and to do so fast. I am pretty sure that George has known that they where on the optimal goal to ship a game fast. If I owned a publisher and had a strict one year deadline for a game and George offered to be the project lead on it, I would hire him in a heartbeat.

[jet jaguar 2.0]

I'm as bitter a DNF fan as anyone but at this point there's not much use in kicking GB while he's down. He knows that magnitude of the mess that he's in regarding DNF. Pouring on the salt isn't going to get DNF back on track and it's not really going to make you feel better. Just let it go and move on.

[Semaj]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

I am pretty sure that George has known that they where on the optimal goal to ship a game fast.

But they still didn't ship the game...

[Kristian Joensen]

You don't have to tell me that...

But seriously do you really think that George thought in 1997 that not having release dates, etc was a good project management practice? WID was never meant as a project management philosophy.

[Yatta]

WoodenSword, I personally think you're such a nice guy that you're giving GB more respect than he deserves.

Also, I can understand my post coming on as too strong for some members, and I apologize if I've offended anyone. I just can't help disliking George for the reasons noted above, and for personal reasons with respect to his behavior towards me when I've tried contacting him in the past on behalf of Duke4.net.

I agree with not kicking the dog while he's down, and normally I wouldn't have done that, but George keeps pushing it by coming up with new ways to make people dislike him.

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:49 PM ----------

I think GB could at least show some humanity and come out and apologize.

If he'd be willing to just stop being stubborn and proud for just ONE time, just to PUBLICLY say sorry to the fans and to everyone else involved with Duke, I would be willing to accept him as a human being.

[Kristian Joensen]

What exactly do you want him to say? (That he hasn't said before and isn't barred from saying on account of the lawsuit?)

[Yatta]

I want him to apologize his ass off, publicly

"To all fans and people I've worked with: I'm sorry for being arrogant, self-centered, and disconnected from reality. I'm sorry for wasting your time whether you followed my work or whether you were working with me. I'm sorry I was enough of an ape to go on splurges and SHOW IT OFF ON TWITTER while some of you were out there trying to find jobs to support yourselves and your families. I'm also sorry I pretended to care when I fired all of you and wrote recommendations on LinkedIn so you wouldn't badmouth me later. Etc."

[Kray]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

What exactly do you want him to say? (That he hasn't said before and isn't barred from saying on account of the lawsuit?)

Wow, idk what to say...why are you defending the monument to incompetence that is GB and 3DR? Earlier you said if you were a producer you would hire GB in a heart beat!? Are you high? It's almost like you're trying to say it hasn't been GB in charge all these years that was not his role? If GB was not in charge....who the was?

What has GB ever done that makes him so great anyway? Ya I'm a huge Duke fan but that is all he has ever really done. Prey and MaxPayne were handed out to other developers so basically the guy has created one great game Duke Nukem 3D.

Personally I wouldn't hire GB to manage a broom closet.

[stumppy84]

Guys it's just a game... Go get laid

GOD BLESS DNF!

[ZuljinRaynor]

DNF IS THE MESSIAH.

[Duke's New Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by stumppy84

Guys it's just a game...

LOL, it's not even that!

[ReadOnly]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

But seriously do you really think that George thought in 1997 that not having release dates, etc was a good project management practice? WID was never meant as a project management philosophy.

I don't care what it meant. The game development was on some kind of loop* for almost a decade(which was surely a mismanagement). And when he realized it should be changed, he still couldn't succeed.

* - technically there was only one pure restart - from id to unreal tech. And even that was clearly a dumb decision. Especially when you read press release about how easy it would be to convert everything to new tech.

P.S. No, I'll just quote it. It's awesome.

"The game should not be significantly delayed", noted Broussard, "but it will take a little time to get up to speed with the new engine and learn how to exploit it. Fortunately, all of our game data will transfer very easily and we see being back to where we were at E3 within a month to 6 weeks."

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by Yatta

I'm not as arrogant as Americans who were happy about Obama not getting Chicago the 2012 Olympics

It isnt arrogance to be angered by our President using his power to get favors for his state. Not to mention the excess use of Air Force One... AND MOST IMPORTANTLY : this is all while we have a huge problem in Afghanistan. It isnt arrogance to LAUGH AT HIM when he fails to get what he wants while being irresponsible.

Obama spoke with General McChrsytal once in his first 70 days. He had one 25 minute conversation with him in Copenhagen. and then Obama has the gall to tell top trained field commanders "You're doing it wrong." When even HE doesnt bother to read bills he signs. That is hypocritcal and the real arrogance.

It's kinda like when GB went to Vegas to spend thousands of dollars... Only its millions of dollars, not his money, and people are dying while he's doing that, instead of being Commander In Chief during a time of war.

We're not arrogant at being pissed at our president, and we're not arrogant for smiling when he doesnt get what he wants when he doesnt deserve it.

Originally Posted by Yatta

or as arrogant as Rush Limbaugh hoping Obama would fail.

Limbaugh was staying true to what he believes. Do you want someone you dissagree with on just about every level to succeed? No, you dont. Thats not arrogance. As you said relative to DNF, Limbaugh said relative to America... "I want America to succeed." Schadenfreude that is not.



As far as George Brossauard and 3D Realms are concerned, I hope they win the court case. What Take2 has done is broken the backs of an entire development team that has now had to migrate and find new jobs. As opposed to giving 3DR the last leg of the trip worth of money and maintaining a sturdy investment and one additional development house.

Not to mention shooting the Duke Nukem franchise in the foot, while wanting to acquire it completely for themselves. Ironic, they devalued the very thing they saught by not giving 3DR the money and ability to finish Duke Forever.

Take2 basically hurt themselves in all of this.

Originally Posted by ReadOnly

P.S. No, I'll just quote it. It's awesome.

...and later he admitted that they underestimated the challenge of converting to a new engine. It isnt like George hasnt said "We've made mistakes." "We've had to learn the hard way." etc... Granted that isnt enough to make up for all this time gone, but it is something.

[Rider]

Maybe George would've been better off being creative lead than project manager.

[Mackan]

I think not being 'hardcore' fan is the way to go. Then you'll not be so emotionally involved in the fate of the game, or the people making it.

/shrink out

[SpinX]

it was pretty ignorant of 3Drealms after 12 years of devellopment to go ask for money...

They shouldn't have let it come that far...

[ZuljinRaynor]

No, you're all ignorant!

[Duke's New Chainsaw]

Oh, that's just ignorant!

[ReadOnly]

Originally Posted by Commando Nukem

As far as George Brossauard and 3D Realms are concerned, I hope they win the court case. What Take2 has done is broken the backs of an entire development team that has now had to migrate and find new jobs.

What's Take Two got to do with this? 3dRealms simply run out of money.

As opposed to giving 3DR the last leg of the trip worth of money and maintaining a sturdy investment and one additional development house.

Because they had several millions just lying around?

Not to mention shooting the Duke Nukem franchise in the foot, while wanting to acquire it completely for themselves.

Where have they stated anything about acquiring Duke IP? They were talking only about DNF.

Ironic, they devalued the very thing they saught by not giving 3DR the money and ability to finish Duke Forever.

3dRealms was self funded. And T2 actually did give them money in 2008.

...and later he admitted that they underestimated the challenge of converting to a new engine. It isnt like George hasnt said "We've made mistakes." "We've had to learn the hard way." etc... Granted that isnt enough to make up for all this time gone, but it is something.

That was not the point I was making. I was talking about mistakes. Changing engines was one of the mistakes George made. Admitting a mistake doesn't mean that mistake is somewhat downplayed. It was still a serious mistake. And even after changing engines they still we're not able to finish DNF in a decade.

[Dennis]

Go Yatta ! Go Yatta !

Seriously, the man is incompetent...

If you look up this word in Wikipedia you get his name, sadly but true

[KaiserSoze]

A couple quick points.

George was rich before he laid off the entire development team. While he breached etiquette imo posting tweets about gambling away thousands of dollars while his team was looking for jobs, I'm not so sure that makes him a bad guy. I personally found it a bit strange and probably not the greatest time to be bragging about it, but then again, I stopped trying to figure out George and his ways a long time ago.

I'm as bummed, pissed off and frustrated as anyone else but I don't like the "pile on" mentality I'm reading along with posts advocating the leaking of the game(not so much here but other places) and the general hostility being directed at George and co. NOBODY deserves that. Criticism is fine but some of this stuff is over the top. In the end, it *IS* only a game and some of the posts I've come across from people saying they're "fans" have disturbed me more than the whole DNF fiasco in it's entirety.

My advice? Sit back, relax and take a deep breath. We've waited this long for the game, why not a little bit longer(hopefully next summer) until this mess gets sorted out?

Come on guys, ease off a bit and cheer up. I still think the future will be bright.

[JobivanHiob]

Originally Posted by KaiserSoze

A couple quick points.

George was rich before he laid off the entire development team. While he breached etiquette imo posting tweets about gambling away thousands of dollars while his team was looking for jobs, I'm not so sure that makes him a bad guy. I personally found it a bit strange and probably not the greatest time to be bragging about it, but then again, I stopped trying to figure out George and his ways a long time ago.

I'm as bummed, pissed off and frustrated as anyone else but I don't like the "pile on" mentality I'm reading along with posts advocating the leaking of the game(not so much here but other places) and the general hostility being directed at George and co. NOBODY deserves that. Criticism is fine but some of this stuff is over the top. In the end, it *IS* only a game and some of the posts I've come across from people saying they're "fans" have disturbed me more than the whole DNF fiasco in it's entirety.

My advice? Sit back, relax and take a deep breath. We've waited this long for the game, why not a little bit longer(hopefully next summer) until this mess gets sorted out?

Come on guys, ease off a bit and cheer up. I still think the future will be bright.

an honest and enlightning statement!
Thanks Kaiser
I complety agree with you here.

[Jabba the Hutt]

Originally Posted by KaiserSoze

A couple quick points.

George was rich before he laid off the entire development team. While he breached etiquette imo posting tweets about gambling away thousands of dollars while his team was looking for jobs, I'm not so sure that makes him a bad guy. I personally found it a bit strange and probably not the greatest time to be bragging about it, but then again, I stopped trying to figure out George and his ways a long time ago.

I'm as bummed, pissed off and frustrated as anyone else but I don't like the "pile on" mentality I'm reading along with posts advocating the leaking of the game(not so much here but other places) and the general hostility being directed at George and co. NOBODY deserves that. Criticism is fine but some of this stuff is over the top. In the end, it *IS* only a game and some of the posts I've come across from people saying they're "fans" have disturbed me more than the whole DNF fiasco in it's entirety.

My advice? Sit back, relax and take a deep breath. We've waited this long for the game, why not a little bit longer(hopefully next summer) until this mess gets sorted out?

Come on guys, ease off a bit and cheer up. I still think the future will be bright.

Amen to that!

[Acid]

Originally Posted by KaiserSoze

A couple quick points.

George was rich before he laid off the entire development team. While he breached etiquette imo posting tweets about gambling away thousands of dollars while his team was looking for jobs, I'm not so sure that makes him a bad guy. I personally found it a bit strange and probably not the greatest time to be bragging about it, but then again, I stopped trying to figure out George and his ways a long time ago.

I'm as bummed, pissed off and frustrated as anyone else but I don't like the "pile on" mentality I'm reading along with posts advocating the leaking of the game(not so much here but other places) and the general hostility being directed at George and co. NOBODY deserves that. Criticism is fine but some of this stuff is over the top. In the end, it *IS* only a game and some of the posts I've come across from people saying they're "fans" have disturbed me more than the whole DNF fiasco in it's entirety.

My advice? Sit back, relax and take a deep breath. We've waited this long for the game, why not a little bit longer(hopefully next summer) until this mess gets sorted out?

Come on guys, ease off a bit and cheer up. I still think the future will be bright.

Yeah Agreed

[Semaj]

Originally Posted by KaiserSoze

A couple quick points.

George was rich before he laid off the entire development team. While he breached etiquette imo posting tweets about gambling away thousands of dollars while his team was looking for jobs, I'm not so sure that makes him a bad guy. I personally found it a bit strange and probably not the greatest time to be bragging about it, but then again, I stopped trying to figure out George and his ways a long time ago.

I'm as bummed, pissed off and frustrated as anyone else but I don't like the "pile on" mentality I'm reading along with posts advocating the leaking of the game(not so much here but other places) and the general hostility being directed at George and co. NOBODY deserves that. Criticism is fine but some of this stuff is over the top. In the end, it *IS* only a game and some of the posts I've come across from people saying they're "fans" have disturbed me more than the whole DNF fiasco in it's entirety.

My advice? Sit back, relax and take a deep breath. We've waited this long for the game, why not a little bit longer(hopefully next summer) until this mess gets sorted out?

Come on guys, ease off a bit and cheer up. I still think the future will be bright.

But its still ok to say he failed right? Just no personal attacks?

[crunchy superman]

Originally Posted by KaiserSoze

George was rich before he laid off the entire development team. While he breached etiquette imo posting tweets about gambling away thousands of dollars while his team was looking for jobs, I'm not so sure that makes him a bad guy. I personally found it a bit strange and probably not the greatest time to be bragging about it, but then again, I stopped trying to figure out George and his ways a long time ago.

To me, this shows how out of touch he's become. Perhaps his wealth has kept him insulated from the realities of others, both around him and of the Duke fans out here. In that isolated world, maybe DNF's development was more a personal passtime for him than something to ever actually be released, whether intentional or not. Not having to answer to anyone for all those years only made it worse.

We've waited this long for the game, why not a little bit longer(hopefully next summer) until this mess gets sorted out?

Come on guys, ease off a bit and cheer up. I still think the future will be bright.

I don't think the mess will ever be sorted out. Lawyers ruin everything in life. This will only end badly.

[Spardanian]

I look here and in duke4 almost everyday for news, but sadly there are no new.

[WoodenSword]

Originally Posted by crunchy superman

To me, this shows how out of touch he's become.

I disagree. For George Broussard who rarely writes in the forum, he has already talked and apologized about the whole mess:

Originally Posted by George Broussard

That Guy,

You're wrong in your assumption about us caring. There's nothing much we can say at the moment, so I do apologize for that.

Besides that, they made a public statement about the situation, he has similar posts in his twitter ("I am sorry i can't talk about DNF, he talks about duke in general (at least he hasn't abandoned the character duke), and updates his twits regularly.

So...how much more of his "touch" do you want? He is a video game developer and a business man not our boyfriend

[Duke's New Chainsaw]