Bombshell and the bitchslap

[Firstperson]

Is she wearing a Thonged bikini?? I WANNA SEE!!!!!

[Maruno]

I think it's not so much a case of "this is Duke, this is what he does", as much as "this is what happens in the world". In my opinion, there's the EDF generally trying to save everyone, and there's the kick-ass Duke Nukem who cooperates with the EDF and kicks aliens (all of them, not just their asses). Duke is an alien problem solver, if by "problem solver" you mean "shoots them dead".

I just can't imagine a female equivalent of Duke existing in this world. I could certainly be wrong in this, but Duke has been the only star of three entire games, plus any number of spin-offs. Bombshell hasn't been mentioned, and you'd think she would be if she was anywhere near Duke's level. Also, if you're not at or above Duke's level, you're very unlikely to survive (don't forget that Duke was caught and almost electrocuted in the first episode of 3D, that his ride was shot up twice, and that several other unremembered things have happened to him as well). If Bombshell was at a lower level, she'd be dead (i.e. at a level above the cowering masses, but below Duke such that she's insignificant). Miraculous escapes, infusions of steroids/gloop/vitamin X and so on that would create this kick-ass-ette aren't particularly likely, and any attempt to use that as explanations sounds far too tacky.

The NPCs from Elite Force, and the two characters from the 2001 trailer ("We're all going to die, lip quiver", "This thing is really pissed off!") were mentioned earlier. I like those. They're bit characters, certainly, and they don't need names or backgrounds or anything (some do in Elite Force because they star in a television show), but they certainly look like they belong there. Doing idle things, being scared witless, having little conversations with friends, etc. That's good stuff. As long as the characters in DNF look like they belong there, I'm happy.

And as I mentioned, Bombshell as the sidekick/rival character doesn't, to me, seem to belong. The only way I could see her in there is as a fembot, in which case she's a boss/miniboss character that doesn't feature much, and certainly doesn't have much of a personality.

The part I emboldened above is my stance. I'm not against Bombshell being a (main) character, I'm not for it either. I'm for realism, in the sense that this fantasy/sci-fi world should be self-consistent and acceptable.

[Teron]

The story of the game reveals, that she's the daughter of Dr. Proton. That would be, well, strange, at least to say.

I guess, all we can do is trust in 3dRealms and I do

[vcatkiller]

Originally Posted by Maruno

I'm for realism, in the sense that this fantasy/sci-fi world should be self-consistent and acceptable.

We are talking Duke Nukem here aren't we? I thought he was supposed to be the complete opposite of realistic? A guy who marches around with an insanely huge arsenal of weapons in his pockets without getting tired, including such realistic weapons as the shrinker/expander and the freeze thrower. Running around in a world where there's a family theme park called Babeland. With pigcops. And using items like jetpacks, which just happen to be lying around the streets. If this all makes sense outside of Duke Nukem, you have a warped sense of reality.

To me, if a larger-than-life guy who saves our chicks can exist in that universe, then I don't see why a larger-than-life warrior woman with giant guns can't also exist, in that same universe.

[Skiffer]

Well shit, lets add a cartoon cat, sort of a comic relief character, who thinks HE'S humanity's last salvation. During your progress you see him in life-threatening situations, slap-stick style, out of which he's saved only by his own dimwittedness, which leaves alot of room for creativity with Duke's oneliners. I'm thinking cel-shading, fedora, black shades and a small trenchcoat -- possibly a Colt 45. Whaddayathink guys? I mean, it's 3drealms, they could pull it off nicely.

[3D Master]

Congratulations, Skiffer, you just LOST the argument.

[Skiffer]

Great. Can we go home now?

[wayskobfssae]

Originally Posted by Skiffer

Well shit, lets add a cartoon cat, sort of a comic relief character, who thinks HE'S humanity's last salvation. During your progress you see him in life-threatening situations, slap-stick style, out of which he's saved only by his own dimwittedness, which leaves alot of room for creativity with Duke's oneliners. I'm thinking cel-shading, fedora, black shades and a small trenchcoat -- possibly a Colt 45. Whaddayathink guys? I mean, it's 3drealms, they could pull it off nicely.

.... Shrek 2?

[HazMat]

Come on Skiffer don't give up yet, you cant throw in the towel because I burned it! Now get back out there and go for the nuts!

[Maruno]

Originally Posted by vcatkiller

We are talking Duke Nukem here aren't we? I thought he was supposed to be the complete opposite of realistic? A guy who marches around with an insanely huge arsenal of weapons in his pockets without getting tired, including such realistic weapons as the shrinker/expander and the freeze thrower. Running around in a world where there's a family theme park called Babeland. With pigcops. And using items like jetpacks, which just happen to be lying around the streets. If this all makes sense outside of Duke Nukem, you have a warped sense of reality.

How about reading the thing you quoted again? I said realistic for Duke's world. I'm well aware there's a whole lot of dodgy sci-fi and fantasy in it, but I was saying that anything else in Duke's world should look like it belongs in Duke's world. Freezethrowers are fine, but pine cone grenades are just being stupid. Self-consistency is the key. Self-consistency.

[vcatkiller]

And reread my whole quote. I was asking why Bombshell doesn't belong in that same world. We're talking about a universe that's larger than life, why can't there be a character like Bombshell in it? You seem to have this concept that a larger-than life character can't be surrounded by other larger-than-life characters while existing in a larger-than-life universe. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Sounds like you just want a universe filled with useless 2D victims though. As soon as they try create another strong character, look out! How dare they try to flesh out Duke's universe with other interesting characters? Duke is alone in his little universe, who needs anything other than whiny 2D "we're all going to die!" kind of characters around him?

[Maruno]

You can have interesting without having generic female rival (which, by the way, I find distinctly uninteresting because it's been done way too often).

You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because you're right in the middle of one. I'm not saying there should be no other characters in the game. I simply don't think generic female rival Bombshell is feasible, considering the history of the games (hasn't been mentioned, Duke is far from infallible, so it's unlikely she exists, etc., as I've explained before). It's just what I think. Doesn't make me right, doesn't make you wrong. Don't take it personally.

[vcatkiller]

And I don't see how she isn't feasible. "Duke is far from infallible, so it's unlikely she exists?" How does that work? Fine, not everybody could survive what he went through, but not every hero would have to. As mentioned by myself, any other character, strong or otherwise, would probably have to live in his oversized shadow, and would be largely ignored, male or female. Doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means Duke's ego possibly wouldn't allow himself to think about them.

So why couldn't she exist? I'd find her much more interesting than strippers or some other useless 2D victims.

[Montykoro!]

Originally Posted by Skiffer

Well shit, lets add a cartoon cat, sort of a comic relief character,..... ...... I'm thinking cel-shading, fedora, black shades and a small trenchcoat -- possibly a Colt 45. ...

Last action Hero... remember? the cat save Arnie...

[Maruno]

Originally Posted by vcatkiller

And I don't see how she isn't feasible. "Duke is far from infallible, so it's unlikely she exists?" How does that work? Fine, not everybody could survive what he went through, but not every hero would have to. As mentioned by myself, any other character, strong or otherwise, would probably have to live in his oversized shadow, and would be largely ignored, male or female. Doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means Duke's ego possibly wouldn't allow himself to think about them.

So why couldn't she exist? I'd find her much more interesting than strippers or some other useless 2D victims.

Again, straw man. Yes, she would be more interesting than "useless 2D characters", but I'd find many other characters a lot more interesting than her. There are so many other ways to introduce good characters that I'd rather see. Yes, I'm sure all those other ways have been done already, but not nearly as often as "tech-savvy rugmuncher heroine with tsundere traits and generic grudge against hero and bursting desire to depreciate him wherever possible" (which appears all over the place nowadays as if it's overcompensation for female oppression all those decades ago). It's so easy to create such a character it's almost sickening whenever I see one. (And as far as I can tell, this is what you want.)

That's why I don't want to see such a character. That was an aside.

I won't bother trying to explain again why I don't imagine said character would/could exist in the world. I've tried once or twice, and you want to oppose it in exactly the same way that I'm not opposing your views (i.e. I keep saying it's my opinion, and you're denying it, with the opposite case not being true). And here's me thinking that freedom of speech thing you Americans keep talking about actually applies anywhere...

[vcatkiller]

Ok, let's just pull out the bit I don't understand:

if you're not at or above Duke's level, you're very unlikely to survive

That there just says to me that anybody weaker than Duke will very possibly die. Or maybe I'm missing something here? Just doesn't compute - sounds like you're saying you want Duke and then a whole bunch of people who are weak and need rescuing. I have been known to miss the point though. If yes, then I disagree with you. If no, then what then?

Either way, I do concede I've been extremely defensive on the point, and probably gone a lot overboard. A lot of forumites here seem to not want her in because of completely silly reasons, like "Duke works alone", "doesn't fit the atmosphere", "Duke doesn't get rescued by girls" , etc. Whether she's in or not, I absolutely hope they add some strong interesting characters to the game, not just hapless rescue victims. It can only help the game, not hurt.

Oh, and I'm not American. Thanks for the insult. :P

[3D Master]

Originally Posted by Maruno

You can have interesting without having generic female rival (which, by the way, I find distinctly uninteresting because it's been done way too often).

You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because you're right in the middle of one. I'm not saying there should be no other characters in the game. I simply don't think generic female rival Bombshell is feasible, considering the history of the games (hasn't been mentioned, Duke is far from infallible, so it's unlikely she exists, etc., as I've explained before). It's just what I think. Doesn't make me right, doesn't make you wrong. Don't take it personally.

Would you please name all those generic female rivals? Cause I don't seem to remember a one.

And oh, who says she's a rival?

[Maruno]

Originally Posted by vcatkiller

That there just says to me that anybody weaker than Duke will very possibly die. Or maybe I'm missing something here? Just doesn't compute - sounds like you're saying you want Duke and then a whole bunch of people who are weak and need rescuing. I have been known to miss the point though. If yes, then I disagree with you. If no, then what then?

It's an alien invasion. Everyone is likely to die. Even Duke dies, often (if my gaming skills are anything to go by). Stronger people will want to go after the aliens, while the weaker ones hide, and thus are more likely to die. Duke himself had troubles, but he survived, suggesting anyone significantly weaker than him (but still stronger than the masses) is likely to have had serious difficulties/death.

I don't want "Duke and rescuees only", as you think I'm saying. I don't much care about the rescuing. There can be a whole spread of people (the EDF is a good example, and they'll have all kinds of operatives and people who are competent in their own ways).

Originally Posted by vcatkiller

A lot of forumites here seem to not want her in because of completely silly reasons, like "Duke works alone", "doesn't fit the atmosphere", "Duke doesn't get rescued by girls" , etc. Whether she's in or not, I absolutely hope they add some strong interesting characters to the game, not just hapless rescue victims. It can only help the game, not hurt.

My "silly reason" is the "doesn't fit the atmosphere" thing, and I don't think it's silly at all. I think it's the most important thing to strive for. You can make up a completely bizarre world (Star Wars, Fullmetal Alchemist, etc. etc.), but anything in that world must belong there. By my logic, Bombshell as a generic female rival is very unlikely to exist in this world (unless you invoke the principle of "the script says so").

I hope for the same thing you do. I hope they make the game interesting. My one point is that I don't find the "generic female rival" character interesting, which is why I was talking about it. Everyone else was disagreeing with me (through misinterpretation, different opinions or even on principle ), so I felt the need to continue.

I now really hope Bombshell, in any form, is not in this game now. Just because. I'd like to see all this bickering become even more pointless than it already is. I mean my own drivel as well, there, by the way.


And I won't name all the "generic female rivals" out there, because I can't remember offhand. Naturally the characters all vary, sometimes quite significantly, but in the end it's the same base character. I just know there's a lot out there. There's a lot of everything out there, including lots of people who want to make more of everything there already.

[Skiffer]

Originally Posted by 3D Master

Would you please name all those generic female rivals? Cause I don't seem to remember a one.

Exactly, they're just that boring and forgettable. GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!

Originally Posted by vcatkiller

Either way, I do concede I've been extremely defensive on the point, and probably gone a lot overboard. A lot of forumites here seem to not want her in because of completely silly reasons, like "Duke works alone", "doesn't fit the atmosphere", "Duke doesn't get rescued by girls" , etc. Whether she's in or not, I absolutely hope they add some strong interesting characters to the game, not just hapless rescue victims. It can only help the game, not hurt.

I doubt anyone would disagree with that bit. It's probably more the idea of adding characters that aren't just "strong", as you put it, but "on par" with Duke that is upsetting; wether they're interesting or not isn't really the point.

If you want to have a character that stands out, you need the rest of the cast to sit down, or at least put the main man on a chair or something. That said, the Duke universe isn't, and doesn't have to be, a haven for cowardly one-dimensional eye-candy characters; it just means some characters become less compatible with said universe than others. Chars who crack equally witty one-liners, or handle gunfights / damage as unrealistically as Duke or pick up chicks at alarming rates -- their presence would lower the badass factor of the main character, making him plainer, and in essence it'd lower the badass factor of the player who's controlling his actions.

Debating whether Bombshell is or isn't compatible is pointless, as our information about her is void. The argument, as far as I see it, is majorly based on our personal experience of and reactions to the portrayal of strong women in popular media. In my opinion we only ever get to see annoying cretins introduced through this particular archetype, meaning that if such an entity made itself present in the Duke universe I can but speculate that it'll add no more than sheer annoyance to the mix. One can only imagine that the opposition simply doesn't share my opinion or experience on that one point. If so, then it's a stalemate, and not much more can in fact be said about it.

Also, I've been speculating how it'd feel if, say, you approached a stripper in Duke3d and pulled out some greens and the good ol' 'Shake it baby!', only to be forced away with a reproachful "Piss off, you freak!" or "Not now!" upon which the stripper exits the scene and locks herself away in the dressing room. Any thoughts on such a scenario? Boggles the mind a bit on this end.

[vcatkiller]

Maruno - my point on the atmosphere is we don't know the atmosphere! That's what makes it kind of silly. It's futile to make any kind of conjuncture on anything. We know next to nothing about anything DNF related, and can only guess at the atmosphere from previous experience. Therefore, we have no idea who or what can exist in the world, from an atmosphere point of view. Yeah it will be tough, but who's to say how many 'almost as tough as' Duke characters can get around?

We know even less about Bombshell, if that's possible. All of a sudden, from some comments I've made that she could be a rival, we've turned her into a walking generic girl-power tat-wearing leather jacket foul-mouthed wench who likes to snip men's wieners off with rusty pliers or something. wtf? I agree, I wouldn't want that either. Ever think it's actually possible to give a woman a little backbone without giving her an evil attitude though? Apparently not.

Skiffer - I agree, no character should be on par with Duke. Once again ignoring Bombshell for a second, it doesn't mean we can't have strong characters. I can think of a few examples which don't exactly need to be tougher than Duke, just tough.

I'm not asking for an army of wisecracking Duke clones here, people. Just some characters who don't fall into the "oh save me Duke!" category.

Oh and on the stripper thing at the end of Skiffer's post? It's the middle of an alien invasion. Bullets flying every where, explosions, people running and dieing, etc...Duke walks up to a stripper, hands her a bill and says "shake it baby!" I can't see her stopping to pop 'em out for Duke to ogle either. (Ok, kind of stretching the comment a little, but still... )

[3D Master]

Originally Posted by Skiffer

Exactly, they're just that boring and forgettable. GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!

Nope, it means THEY DON'T EXIST!!!

And I won't name all the "generic female rivals" out there, because I can't remember offhand.

Or in short: THEY DON'T EXIST!!!

You just pulled "generic female rivals" out of your ass.

And again; who said she would be a "rival".

[Monkey Butler]

People without the imagination to see beyond lame cliches, that's who.

[Suteki]

Originally Posted by Kennerado

I highly doubt she is still in the game anyway.

Sums it up for me. Bombshell was being way too much of a diva for 3D Realms, and finally trashed her dressing room one too many times.

If Bombshell appears in the game, it'll be as an easter egg. I vote for her strapped to a bomb in a barely accessible bomb bay, or something.

[wayskobfssae]

Originally Posted by vcatkiller

We know even less about Bombshell, if that's possible. All of a sudden, from some comments I've made that she could be a rival, we've turned her into a walking generic girl-power tat-wearing leather jacket foul-mouthed wench who likes to snip men's wieners off with rusty pliers or something. wtf? I agree, I wouldn't want that either. Ever think it's actually possible to give a woman a little backbone without giving her an evil attitude though? Apparently not.

It may be possible. But the entertainment industry doesn't seem to think so.

[carnagereap]

She should probaley be Dr.Protons daughter and one of the bosses. Bombshell:"I'm gonna rip you apart".
Duke:Son of a B**ch

[Commando Nukem]

...Why w-- Where did this mentality that shes a boss or a "rival" come from? The idea behind the character was she a was an ally (not a "Sidekick" or a "partner") but an actual ally that helped you get through some trickier parts.

Im not a fan of the idea of her being a boss... at all. The idea that shse Protons daughter and doesnt agree with dear old daddy seems kinda cool, albeit done, but Duke himself is a done character, everything about his is things that were "done" elsewhere, and have been given a spin.

[Maruno]

Originally Posted by Commando Nukem

...Why w-- Where did this mentality that shes a boss or a "rival" come from? The idea behind the character was she a was an ally (not a "Sidekick" or a "partner") but an actual ally that helped you get through some trickier parts.

Where did YOU get THAT idea? Show me where it says Bombshell was designed to be an ally character, and that'll never change.

Ignore Dr Proton; I think Bombshell would do fine as a fembot. And have her come from the future, why not; that'd be the Terminator reference right there.

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by Maruno

Where did YOU get THAT idea? Show me where it says Bombshell was designed to be an ally character, and that'll never change.

Ignore Dr Proton; I think Bombshell would do fine as a fembot. And have her come from the future, why not; that'd be the Terminator reference right there.

Show me where it says she wasn't. Gridlock.

Its pretty obvious based on two moments in the trailer(98) where Bombshell is in the same room with Duke, twice, and Duke doesnt shoot her. In Dukes world you're either with him, or you're infront of his gun, there aint no middle ground.

Who needs a terminator reference? We already had one in that "EDF" Cyborg coming out of the fire in 2001 trailer. If thats still in i'd sayd thats close enough!

[vcatkiller]

You know, I don't think Duke shoots everybody he meets just because they're not completely on his side. Otherwise ordinary tasks could be a little difficult. Going down the corner shop to buy milk could be a little messy, for example.

Besides, that was from the 98 trailer. Things can change you know. That scene could've just been in the trailer just to show character facial expressions and wasn't intended to be in the game for all we know.

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by vcatkiller

You know, I don't think Duke shoots everybody he meets just because they're not completely on his side. Otherwise ordinary tasks could be a little difficult. Going down the corner shop to buy milk could be a little messy, for example.

Besides, that was from the 98 trailer. Things can change you know. That scene could've just been in the trailer just to show character facial expressions and wasn't intended to be in the game for all we know.

Aw cmon! Heh, now you've got me thinking of Duke in a political debate. "I dissagree... I thin-BANG!-" "Problem solved." ... This is the guy who "accuracy" doesnt matter to, remember? That was what it said about Duke3D. Spray and Pray.


Well we were talking about the initial inception of the character here and from the looks of it i've seen nothing about the character to imply shes an adversary, the only thing hinting at anything like that was that she was supposedly a lesbian or something and not interested in Duke in that way. (Correct my if im wrong, I remember reading that in an old article)... Which to me implied nothing more then comical dialogue exchanges between the two of them.

[Vinsane]

Originally Posted by Commando Nukem

Aw cmon! Heh, now you've got me thinking of Duke in a political debate. "I dissagree... I thin-BANG!-" "Problem solved." ... This is the guy who "accuracy" doesnt matter to, remember? That was what it said about Duke3D. Spray and Pray.


Well we were talking about the initial inception of the character here and from the looks of it i've seen nothing about the character to imply shes an adversary, the only thing hinting at anything like that was that she was supposedly a lesbian or something and not interested in Duke in that way. (Correct my if im wrong, I remember reading that in an old article)... Which to me implied nothing more then comical dialogue exchanges between the two of them.

She's a Duke wanna be, and telling her it aint happening Duke says..."There are times when you just can't have a woman do a mans job, no matter how tough you think you are! Now get me another beer, bitch!"

[3D Master]

^A man who says that, is no man at all, and a pathetic wimp too afraid of women and any competition he needs crush women.

In short; it ain't Duke. A guy like that would get a big boot to face from Duke, at the least.

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by 3D Master

^A man who says that, is no man at all, and a pathetic whimp to afraid of women and any competition he needs crush women.

In short; it ain't Duke. A guy like that would get a big boot to face from Duke, at the least.

"Im an equal opportunity ass kicker" pretty much somes it up... and save for the innuendo, the babes in "planet of the babes" had their moments of independence. Duke never disrespected them either.

Duke isn't a misogynist(sp?)..quite the opposite. Hes the man... And to be the man you have to have at least some respect for women... I think Master called it though, not quite Dukes style to bad mouth and mistreat women. "Hes the guy who saves our chicks" after all.

As for Bombshell I guess we'll just have to wait and see eh?