Light/Dark

Kalki · 10-30-2005, 03:20 AM

It seems technology sets the tone of this game. While the Quake 2 based DNF was often light but still gritty imo, the UT stuff was definitely dark and atmospheric which I think was due to a limitation of the Unreal engine not being able to do really bright scenes at the time. Me, I kind of liked both approaches and the variation they stood for. Now we've got Doom 3 like per-pixel lighting on one hand and Lost Coast like HDR on the other...

trackit · 10-30-2005, 04:47 AM

i dont like when games are too dark... It makes my eyes hurt when i have to figure out whats going on in that pitch black... and it is really annoying. Some scenes can be in dark but they should be minority imo

JackpotDen · 10-30-2005, 06:49 AM

I prefer Dark for vegas, light for desert, but dark as in "its a dark room with ****loads of neon lights and stuff so I can see clearly.

Duoae · 10-30-2005, 07:25 AM

I want real-time HDR lighting using ray-tracing technology.

But if they can't manage this i'll be happy with static lightmaps or ray-tracing. TBH, i'm just interested in what system they might decide on considering they've developed portal visualisations in the past. I'm assuming they still own and have that code. I want to see what can be done to the unreal engine!

Kristian Joensen · 10-30-2005, 07:35 AM

The engine already supports HDR and per-pixel lighting as well as stencil shadows.

SyntaxN · 10-30-2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Duoae said:
I want real-time HDR lighting using ray-tracing technology.

Well...anything else

But I seriously hope they can achieve UE3 niveau graphics...possibly the textures aren´t as highres but uber great artstyle can produce the same *wow* effect

For the topic, just give me the 2001 style...or something better, the rest is up to 3dr

Mr.Sociopath · 10-30-2005, 08:14 AM

Screenshots to what the poll talks about would be better..
I chose mainly stuff that says" I don,t care" cause I don't remember seeing what you talk about..
Only thing I chose was day/night cycle because it's more fun

Imfamous · 10-30-2005, 10:40 AM

How about it looks like this for Vegas...

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123253864.jpg

This for the desert...

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123866378.jpg

And this for space levels

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123253863.jpg

Tim. Just Tim. · 10-30-2005, 01:00 PM

I have nothing against the idea of dark areas in games. In fact, I will be very surprised if DNF doesnt have at least a few of them.

The problem with dark areas are that they are UNFAIR, in both single player and multiplayer.

Singleplayer:
If a bad guy is in a dark spot, you either cant see him, or cant see him easily meaning you have reduced accuracy and reaction time and motion planning. This is fine, this is what the darkness should do. The problem is that if you and the bad guy switch places, he has no problems whatsoever seeing you. No games that I know of are fair this way. If im in a dark spot then the bad guy should have just as hard a time seeing me as when hes in the bad spot and I cant see him. There are a few games out there that claim to do this, but they still dont feel right/fair to me.

Multiplayer:
As soon as you have dark spots in multiplayer levels it creates unfairness because there is always going to be people who crank their brighness up to get the advantage of not having dark areas. So when playing online, your either forced to make the graphics look shitty by making them all overbright, or you get your ass kicked by a player who is basically cheating.

Kalki · 10-30-2005, 01:59 PM

Here are a few pictures of Ghosttown and Gus, for reference:

Unreal-

http://www.planetduke.com/images/ima...mer1999/06.jpg

http://www.planetduke.com/images/ima...mer1999/09.jpg

Quake 2- (To get a better idea of this, watch the E3'98 video)

hell-angel · 10-31-2005, 01:37 AM

I want gus to look old and tough.

Micki! · 10-31-2005, 03:52 AM

Quote:

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and rough.

Fixed that..!

hell-angel · 10-31-2005, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Micki! said:

Quote:

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and rough.

Fixed that..!

that to of course.

Duoae · 10-31-2005, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Kristian Joensen said:
The engine already supports HDR and per-pixel lighting as well as stencil shadows.

Which engine? The DNF renderer? Unreal or Doom 3?

Because i haven't seen any real-time HDR in a game yet... not even in a demo reel. (and i don't count bloom...)

Kristian Joensen · 10-31-2005, 11:23 AM

The DNF renderer and what are you on about, UE3 supports HDR, so does Farcry and Source atleast with the release of Lost Coast.

Joe Siegler · 10-31-2005, 11:44 AM

Quote:

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and tough.

Gus IS Duke - that's what happens when the game has been in development so long.

dark_angel · 10-31-2005, 12:08 PM

I hope Gus is still capable of saving the world!

Highlag · 10-31-2005, 02:02 PM

Duoae:

HDR can be seen as mentioned in Lost coast demo from HL2

I must say it rocks!

FireFly · 10-31-2005, 03:16 PM

And it's in Splinter Cell, and even Age of Empires 3, I recall

Shaam · 10-31-2005, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Kalki said:
Mainly Lost Coast HDR bloom effects please

No Bloom effects.

I hate bloom. Also Orlando Bloom.

Imfamous · 10-31-2005, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Knewace said:

Quote:

Kalki said:
Mainly Lost Coast HDR bloom effects please

No Bloom effects.

I hate bloom.

I agree. They used to be a treat, but are not completely overdone.

Zaarin · 10-31-2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Joe3DR said:
Gus IS Duke - that's what happens when the game has been in development so long.

Good to see that you haven't lost your sence for irony.

Duoae · 10-31-2005, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Kristian Joensen said:
The DNF renderer and what are you on about, UE3 supports HDR, so does Farcry and Source atleast with the release of Lost Coast.

Last time i checked Half Life 2 was precompiled lightmaps..... not real-time HDR. Same with Farcry? I thought that it only had dynamic lighting inside?

I thought Doom 3 used ray-tracing? UE3 is the only one i know of that might, but I haven't seen any HDR in those demos, only bloom.

Read my posts please. :/

hell-angel · 11-01-2005, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Joe3DR said:

Quote:

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and tough.

Gus IS Duke - that's what happens when the game has been in development so long.

hehe, lol.

I already though he looked familiar.

Cerberus_e · 11-01-2005, 04:36 AM

Quote:

FireFly said:
And it's in Splinter Cell, and even Age of Empires 3, I recall

and far cry

FireFly · 11-01-2005, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Duoae said:
Last time i checked Half Life 2 was precompiled lightmaps..... not real-time HDR. Same with Farcry? I thought that it only had dynamic lighting inside?

HDR is merely a method of storing light information with an increased range of brightness values. It doesn't matter what you then use those brightness values for - you're still doing HDR.

Typically this brightness information is used in games to increase the contrast levels possible in a scene. For example, suppose you have a rock with a reflectivity rating of 20%. If the light source shining on that rock is rated at the maximum brightness level the monitor can display (1.0) then because the rock is only able to reflect 20%, the overall brightness level of that rock will be limited to 0.20.

However with HDR you can have a light source far brighter than this maximum, which means that the same rock can now have a brightness of up to 1.0.

The process where the 'overbright' level is converted to a level the monitor can display is called tonemapping. This is a fully dynamic process. Bloom comes in here, as well. Overbright lights are typically bloomed, with the amount of bloom depending on how (over)bright they are. This is all done in real time. So it's not true to say the HDR process isn't dynamic because the tonemapper will be dynamically assessing the contributions of all the lightsources in the scene and applying bloom where necessary. In this case I think it matters little whether the light sources are static or dynamic. The process is unchanged.

So, in Half-Life 2 dynamic light sources also work with the HDR system, as you can see if you flick on your flashlight (or watch somebody else do the same). I think there are overbright dynamic lights in Far Cry as well.

Quote:

I thought Doom 3 used ray-tracing? UE3 is the only one i know of that might, but I haven't seen any HDR in those demos, only bloom.

Read my posts please. :/

Ray tracing is far, far too expensive to use on current hardware. If you use it you'll be running at 1 or 2 FPS. Doom 3 uses stencil shadows for the shadowing, and a dynamic per-pixel lighting system for the lighting.

BTW all current games use dynamic lighting, because dynamic lighting just refers to the lighting of a scene, and not the shadowing.

Oh, and UE3 does in fact support HDR.

Micki! · 11-01-2005, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Joe3DR said:

Quote:

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and tough.

Gus IS Duke - that's what happens when the game has been in development so long.

...

Just;

...

Duoae · 11-01-2005, 11:22 AM

Thanks for clarifying.

11-01-2005, 03:52 PM

Oh God.

Cerberus_e · 11-01-2005, 04:50 PM

that rolechair could use a mounted jetpack at least

Echo Black · 11-01-2005, 08:38 PM

"Rolechair"?

ZuljinRaynor · 11-01-2005, 08:44 PM

I voted for Doom 3 Flashlight fest.

hell-angel · 11-02-2005, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Echo Black said:
"Rolechair"?

He meant wheelchair.

And he was right.

Cerberus_e · 11-02-2005, 04:16 AM

damn foreigners, I once read "rolechair" and then I thought the correct word was "rolechair", all the fault of those foreigners

Micki! · 11-02-2005, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Cerberus_e said:
that rolechair could use a mounted jetpack at least

"Rolechair" + "Jetpack" = "Rollchoppar"...

Funny drawing btw...

i'm making two exclusive Duke fanarts for Duke4.net... The first one is already done...

hell-angel · 11-02-2005, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Cerberus_e said:
damn foreigners, I once read "rolechair" and then I thought the correct word was "rolechair", all the fault of those foreigners

hmm, well, so technically that was you own fault then.

Cerberus_e · 11-02-2005, 09:20 AM

Quote:

hell-angel said:

Quote:

Cerberus_e said:
damn foreigners, I once read "rolechair" and then I thought the correct word was "rolechair", all the fault of those foreigners

hmm, well, so technically that was you own fault then.

no, a foreigner is someone from another country... and I'm in my own country so ...

11-02-2005, 03:46 PM

I can't tell who is from where since the languages are so diverse. I'll see English one second, and German the next! Afterword, the German poster will use immaculate English. I don't keep track anymore.

hell-angel · 11-03-2005, 01:32 AM

I am dutch if you want to know.

Quote:

Cerberus_e said:

Quote:

hell-angel said:

Quote:

Cerberus_e said:
damn foreigners, I once read "rolechair" and then I thought the correct word was "rolechair", all the fault of those foreigners

hmm, well, so technically that was you own fault then.

no, a foreigner is someone from another country... and I'm in my own country so ...

Not on these boards you are not.

And for me you are also an foreigner.

And we are getting of topic to the boot.

colmtourque · 11-04-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

trackit said:
i dont like when games are too dark... It makes my eyes hurt when i have to figure out whats going on in that pitch black... and it is really annoying. Some scenes can be in dark but they should be minority imo

nuff said

11-01-2005, 03:52 PM	#29
ecco Guest	Re: Light/Dark Oh God.

11-02-2005, 03:46 PM	#38
Seraph Guest	Re: Light/Dark I can't tell who is from where since the languages are so diverse. I'll see English one second, and German the next! Afterword, the German poster will use immaculate English. I don't keep track anymore.

10-30-2005, 03:20 AM	#1
Kalki	Light/Dark It seems technology sets the tone of this game. While the Quake 2 based DNF was often light but still gritty imo, the UT stuff was definitely dark and atmospheric which I think was due to a limitation of the Unreal engine not being able to do really bright scenes at the time. Me, I kind of liked both approaches and the variation they stood for. Now we've got Doom 3 like per-pixel lighting on one hand and Lost Coast like HDR on the other... __________________ "Gentlemen, generations to follow will see us as the first pioneers of the internet. They will look upon our days as those of brave spirits and free ideals - where men were men, women were men and children were the FBI." Free Speech

10-30-2005, 04:47 AM	#2
trackit	Re: Light/Dark i dont like when games are too dark... It makes my eyes hurt when i have to figure out whats going on in that pitch black... and it is really annoying. Some scenes can be in dark but they should be minority imo __________________ Sorry, but you're reading into it too much!

10-30-2005, 06:49 AM	#3
JackpotDen	Re: Light/Dark I prefer Dark for vegas, light for desert, but dark as in "its a dark room with ****loads of neon lights and stuff so I can see clearly. __________________ Will you pick rifles, or computers?

10-30-2005, 07:25 AM	#4
Duoae	Re: Light/Dark I want real-time HDR lighting using ray-tracing technology. But if they can't manage this i'll be happy with static lightmaps or ray-tracing. TBH, i'm just interested in what system they might decide on considering they've developed portal visualisations in the past. I'm assuming they still own and have that code. I want to see what can be done to the unreal engine! __________________ DudeMiester: IT IS ARE THE COOLEREST!!! Roger: OH NOES, TEH END OF TEH WERLD.

10-30-2005, 07:35 AM	#5
Kristian Joensen	Re: Light/Dark The engine already supports HDR and per-pixel lighting as well as stencil shadows. __________________ The Philosophy Of Liberty, Chaos Theory Tachyons, Time Travel, and Divine Omniscience A Refutation of Moral Relativism(Transcript)

10-30-2005, 08:14 AM	#7
Mr.Sociopath	Re: Light/Dark Screenshots to what the poll talks about would be better.. I chose mainly stuff that says" I don,t care" cause I don't remember seeing what you talk about.. Only thing I chose was day/night cycle because it's more fun

10-30-2005, 10:40 AM	#8
Imfamous	Re: Light/Dark How about it looks like this for Vegas... http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123253864.jpg This for the desert... http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123866378.jpg And this for space levels http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123253863.jpg

10-30-2005, 01:00 PM	#9
Tim. Just Tim.	Re: Light/Dark I have nothing against the idea of dark areas in games. In fact, I will be very surprised if DNF doesnt have at least a few of them. The problem with dark areas are that they are UNFAIR, in both single player and multiplayer. Singleplayer: If a bad guy is in a dark spot, you either cant see him, or cant see him easily meaning you have reduced accuracy and reaction time and motion planning. This is fine, this is what the darkness should do. The problem is that if you and the bad guy switch places, he has no problems whatsoever seeing you. No games that I know of are fair this way. If im in a dark spot then the bad guy should have just as hard a time seeing me as when hes in the bad spot and I cant see him. There are a few games out there that claim to do this, but they still dont feel right/fair to me. Multiplayer: As soon as you have dark spots in multiplayer levels it creates unfairness because there is always going to be people who crank their brighness up to get the advantage of not having dark areas. So when playing online, your either forced to make the graphics look shitty by making them all overbright, or you get your ass kicked by a player who is basically cheating.

10-31-2005, 01:37 AM	#11
hell-angel	Re: Light/Dark I want gus to look old and tough.

10-31-2005, 11:23 AM	#15
Kristian Joensen	Re: Light/Dark The DNF renderer and what are you on about, UE3 supports HDR, so does Farcry and Source atleast with the release of Lost Coast. __________________ The Philosophy Of Liberty, Chaos Theory Tachyons, Time Travel, and Divine Omniscience A Refutation of Moral Relativism(Transcript)

10-31-2005, 12:08 PM	#17
dark_angel	Re: Light/Dark I hope Gus is still capable of saving the world! __________________ Duke Nukem Forever - Crysis - Castle Wolfenstein - Bioshock - CMR : Dirt www.Duke4.net - The ultimate source for 3DRealms next-gen game - DNF " Life rewards no death for immortals " - dark_angel

10-31-2005, 02:02 PM	#18
Highlag	Re: Light/Dark Duoae: HDR can be seen as mentioned in Lost coast demo from HL2 I must say it rocks!

10-31-2005, 03:16 PM	#19
FireFly	Re: Light/Dark And it's in Splinter Cell, and even Age of Empires 3, I recall __________________ "I think the push for people to innovate in gameplay - i'm not sure that I particularly agree with it" John Carmack

11-01-2005, 11:22 AM	#28
Duoae	Re: Light/Dark Thanks for clarifying. __________________ DudeMiester: IT IS ARE THE COOLEREST!!! Roger: OH NOES, TEH END OF TEH WERLD.

11-01-2005, 04:50 PM	#30
Cerberus_e	Re: Light/Dark that rolechair could use a mounted jetpack at least

11-01-2005, 08:38 PM	#31
Echo Black	Re: Light/Dark "Rolechair"? __________________ “Having a reasonable grounding in statistics and probability and no belief in luck, fate, karma, or God(s), the only casino game that interests me is blackjack. Playing blackjack properly is a test of personal discipline." - John Carmack

11-01-2005, 08:44 PM	#32
ZuljinRaynor	Re: Light/Dark I voted for Doom 3 Flashlight fest. __________________ My vision is augmented.

11-02-2005, 04:16 AM	#34
Cerberus_e	Re: Light/Dark damn foreigners, I once read "rolechair" and then I thought the correct word was "rolechair", all the fault of those foreigners