DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula!

Blue Lightning · 04-20-2008, 09:29 AM

As a DN3D fan, I would like to ask the devs to keep the same level design formula that DN3D had. I do not know if you will be using Levelords services, but just to be safe, I wish you would.

DN3D was incredible for many reasons. One of those reasons was it's semi non-linear level design. Many levels had areas where two or even three different paths could lead from one area of a level, to another. In a few cases, there would even be two paths you could take from begining to end! (Hollywood Holocaust and Hotel Hell comes to mind). And some maps were circular in design (Spin Cycle being the most obvious), so you could go left...or you could go right.

And of course in all of this, vents are used quite a bit, and Duke was the first to use them (sorry Gordon Freeman

).

However, the best part about DN3D's somewhat non-linear level design, was that large parts of the levels were linear, so when you got to the few parts that were not, you really never got lost. It is some of the best level design I have seen a video game. I know Levelord did most of them, and someone else did the rest (name escapes me).

So, to the devs...please retain this important formula for DNF.

Commando Nukem · 04-20-2008, 09:43 AM

I tend to agree, though its possibly that non-linearity may not be as present in this game was it was in Duke3D, it would certainly be nice, particularly in the city scapes to have a little freedom, and not be locked to a visible path like in other recent games.

Alpha-One · 04-20-2008, 10:50 AM

okay...i think the levels are standing, not that time to bring in some new changes...perhaps its the old way, perhaps something completely different.
dont think they´ll try any random changes if they really are close to pre-Alpha

Nihilanth · 04-20-2008, 11:10 AM

That's something I've mentioned few times, too. The only (or the only out of those that I've played) game that managed to bring that oldschool level structure today is BioShock. Meh, now we say it's a non-linear level design with exploration (

). It's already years old.

I doubt DNF will have it. Shooter developers don't care about this kind of design/structure anymore.

peoplessi · 04-20-2008, 11:26 AM

Why restrict one self to an older formula, as now days you can even expand on that? I don't see a problem here at all.

Nihilanth · 04-20-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peoplessi

Why restrict one self to an older formula, as now days you can even expand on that? I don't see a problem here at all.

It should be like that, but (i) oldschool level structures offer greater freedom than new ones and (ii) despite being able to do more, developer's choose to do rail shooters/games instead.

ZuljinRaynor · 04-20-2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

I know Levelord did most of them, and someone else did the rest (name escapes me).

Actually Levelord did not make most of them, he was the #2 man. He made almost all of Episode 3 though.

From the text file DUKELVLS.TXT

Code:

For the curious, here is a listing of all the official levels in
Duke Nukem 3D, and who designed them.

AB - Allen H Blum III
LL - Richard Bailey Gray (The Levelord)
RP - Randall Pitchfird II
KS - Keith Schuler
GB - George Broussard

Episode 1:
----------
AB - Hollywood Holocaust
AB - Red Light District
AB - Death Row
AB - Toxic Dump
LL - The Abyss
AB - Launch Facility
AB - Faces of Death (Dukematch Only level)
AB - Dukematch Level 1 (Dukematch Only level)

Episode 2:
----------
AB - Moonbase
LL - Incubator
LL - Warp Factor
AB - Fusion Station
AB - Occupied Territory
AB - Tiberius Station
AB - Lunar Reactor
AB - Dark Side
AB - Overlord
LL - Spin Cycle
LL - Lunatic Fringe

Episode 3:
----------
LL - Raw Meat
LL - Bank Roll
LL - Flood Zone
LL - L.A. Rumble
LL - Movie Set
LL - Rabid Transit
LL - Fahrenheit
LL - Hotel Hell
AB - Stadium
LL - Tier Drops
AB - Freeway

Episode 4:
----------
RP - It's Impossible
AB - Duke Burger
GB - Shop N Bag
AB - Babe Land
RF - Pigsty
KS - XXX Stacy
KS - Critical Mass
AB - Derelict
RP - The Queen
RP - Area 51

Other:
------
AB - _se.map    (Sector Effector Demo Map)
AB - _st.map    (Sector Tag Demo Map)
AB - _zoo.map   (Zoo Map)

Telee · 04-20-2008, 05:26 PM

Huh, never knew Allen built Freeway. I always thought that level had lots of Levelord elements to it.

WoodenSword · 04-20-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZuljinRaynor

Actually Levelord did not make most of them, he was the #2 man. He made almost all of Episode 3 though.

From the text file DUKELVLS.TXT

Very interesting file.I hadn't noticed it
Actually even though LevelLord is more famous Allen H Blum III 's levels are by far the best (Most Episode 1,burger land,etc...).I think Levellord was more well-known because of his cool nick name.

Blue Lightning · 04-20-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

Very interesting file.I hadn't noticed it
Actually even though LevelLord is more famous Allen H Blum III 's levels are by far the best (Most Episode 1,burger land,etc...).I think Levellord was more well-known because of his cool nick name.

LOL you might be partialy correct about the nickname. But to say that Blums are "by far the best" is stretching a little. I mean Levelord did Flood Zone! The most complex level in DN3D I would say...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZuljinRaynor

Actually Levelord did not make most of them, he was the #2 man. He made almost all of Episode 3 though.

From the text file DUKELVLS.TXT

Code:

For the curious, here is a listing of all the official levels in
Duke Nukem 3D, and who designed them.

AB - Allen H Blum III
LL - Richard Bailey Gray (The Levelord)
RP - Randall Pitchfird II
KS - Keith Schuler
GB - George Broussard

Episode 1:
----------
AB - Hollywood Holocaust
AB - Red Light District
AB - Death Row
AB - Toxic Dump
LL - The Abyss
AB - Launch Facility
AB - Faces of Death (Dukematch Only level)
AB - Dukematch Level 1 (Dukematch Only level)

Episode 2:
----------
AB - Moonbase
LL - Incubator
LL - Warp Factor
AB - Fusion Station
AB - Occupied Territory
AB - Tiberius Station
AB - Lunar Reactor
AB - Dark Side
AB - Overlord
LL - Spin Cycle
LL - Lunatic Fringe

Episode 3:
----------
LL - Raw Meat
LL - Bank Roll
LL - Flood Zone
LL - L.A. Rumble
LL - Movie Set
LL - Rabid Transit
LL - Fahrenheit
LL - Hotel Hell
AB - Stadium
LL - Tier Drops
AB - Freeway

Episode 4:
----------
RP - It's Impossible
AB - Duke Burger
GB - Shop N Bag
AB - Babe Land
RF - Pigsty
KS - XXX Stacy
KS - Critical Mass
AB - Derelict
RP - The Queen
RP - Area 51

Other:
------
AB - _se.map    (Sector Effector Demo Map)
AB - _st.map    (Sector Tag Demo Map)
AB - _zoo.map   (Zoo Map)

Thanks, I never knew any of this. Alen Blum the III was very good. Looking at the Levelords maps, it figures he did Spin Cycle and Rabid Transit. Very circular. Many of his other maps are as well (he did 14 maps). It looks like George only did one...but Shop N Bag was a good one. Interesting stuff.

Reaper · 04-20-2008, 07:24 PM

Isn't Allen still working at 3DR?
And I always had a sneaking suspicion that Randall Pitchford was Randy Pitchford (ie CEO of Gearbox Software). Apparently Wikipedia says I'm right. He went on to bigger and better (perhaps not better -- I mean, how can you beat working at 3DR? -- but still quite good) things for sure.

Micki! · 04-20-2008, 11:51 PM

Yeah, Allen is still working at 3DRealms, i'm a big fan of Allen because of his teriffic maps and the great part he took in making Duke3D into what it is... I'm expecting quality levels for DNF as well because of his involvement...

Ras · 04-21-2008, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper

Isn't Allen still working at 3DR?
And I always had a sneaking suspicion that Randall Pitchford was Randy Pitchford (ie CEO of Gearbox Software). Apparently Wikipedia says I'm right. He went on to bigger and better (perhaps not better -- I mean, how can you beat working at 3DR? -- but still quite good) things for sure.

Yes, they are one and the same. He was part of the second bitter break, I believe. The first involved the guys who went on to form Ritual. The second involved the guys who became Rebel Boat Rockers (a play on what GB said to the press at the time) and then Gearbox.

I've always liked Allen Blum's levels the best, and I'm glad he's reportedly still on DNF. The level design defections have been disheartening, but at least the heart of the D3D levels is still there.

Probably my favorite level of the entire package is George's Shop N Bag, followed by Allen's Freeway. I believe in one of the "bitter breakup" airings of dirty laundry to the press, someone--maybe Randy?--claimed that someone else designed SNB, and George just put his name on it. I don't know the truth behind that, or if I'm even remembering right, but I like to think Big George did that sweet, sweet level.

X-Vector · 04-21-2008, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ras

I believe in one of the "bitter breakup" airings of dirty laundry to the press, someone--maybe Randy?--claimed that someone else designed SNB, and George just put his name on it. I don't know the truth behind that, or if I'm even remembering right, but I like to think Big George did that sweet, sweet level.

No, it's Levelord who claimed he designed that level, see here: http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29739.

alexgk · 04-21-2008, 06:29 AM

Lol, I didn't know George was a level desginer for DN3D

. He have to focus totally on directing in DNF, so I guess we won't be seeing levels made by him, specially after making them has become a lot more complicated.

Blue Lightning · 04-21-2008, 07:07 AM

Interesting stuff again...that link that X-Vector provided is some strong sauce. It seems that Levelord designed Pigsty 99 and 44/100 percent. He also takes credit for SOME of Shop N Drop (now Shop N Bag) and XXX Stacy. Frankly, since everybody got over it, and since Levelord has openly stated he wish's he still worked at Apogee/3D Realms because Duke 3D was so fun to make...and since Ritual is no longer...

I would like to see GB get Levelord back on the team, and let him and Allen Blum III go to work so they can create one of the (if not the) greatest games of all time, mabey surpassing Half-Life 2, the original DN3D and BioShock.

Allen III can handle DNF no doubt...but it would really add something if Levelord was back on the scene! Those two belong as a two-man team. And if GB and LL could put the past behind them, that two man team (Allen and Levelord) would be un-stoppable! How about it George? LL did say some inflammitory stuff, he's got a mouth on him no doubt. Genius usually is like that...hard-to-get along with type personalities. But the talent is there...

Level design is everything.

Commando Nukem · 04-21-2008, 08:59 AM

I agree it would be cool to have a bunch of the old gang back working on the game. Problem is, at this stage realistically that'd be really improbably, my gut tells me level design is probably coming together at this point and achieving whatever they want, cant exactly just drop in a new guy at the last minute to "build some maps" Though it certainly would be awesome if levelord could come back and build some DM maps.

Blue Lightning · 04-21-2008, 09:25 AM

Hey you never know. All it would take is a phone call.

I bet LL would love to work on DNF, as I'm sure 3DR would. Who cares about some things said in the past? DNF is a once in a lifetime event. It carries on the Duke Nuke tradition, and DNF has the dubious task of filling some mighty big boots..which is Duke 3D from 1996. DNF has to be as good or even better than DN3D, and DN3D is a tough act to follow. There won't be a second chance.

Levelord makes every map he touches turn to gold, just like King Midas. Look what he did with Sin: Emergence...proof that he's "still got it".

So it's time to forget the silly feud that happened, and get to work! Go ahead GB, pick up the phone.

Ramen4ever · 04-21-2008, 09:54 AM

^
Or you could give the new talent a chance. 3DR did hire quite a few employees. I for one would like to give them a shot and see what they're capable of.

Don Loco · 04-21-2008, 10:18 AM

I hope, they dont make something like prey out of DNF, it was quite linear, and for this no replay fun..

Malgon · 04-21-2008, 10:58 PM

I'd prefer levels that exhibited the traits that made DN3D's levels great; multiple routes, and plenty of secrets. That's not to say I don't enjoy games with linear levels (some guide you well without being too obvious about it), but I do miss the old ways, since they help greatly with replayability imo.

Firstperson · 04-22-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malgon

I'd prefer levels that exhibited the traits that made DN3D's levels great; multiple routes, and plenty of secrets. That's not to say I don't enjoy games with linear levels (some guide you well without being too obvious about it), but I do miss the old ways, since they help greatly with replayability imo.

Well, I guess there is, or was, some interesting choices made there. Either cater to the old-timers who want what DN3D was, cater to the new audiences and what they "grew up" with, or TRY to have a mix of both. Which would be more viable was probably nother question. Too many questions with so few answers now-a-days.

trucedAnimal · 04-23-2008, 01:38 AM

in DN3D when you switched to the map view and disabled map following you could find the initials somewhere. of course you could also open the maps in the map editor to see them.

I hope in DNF you have to unlock doors like in DN3D. I dont care if you need the keys like in DN3D or something else.

vcatkiller · 04-23-2008, 02:52 AM

Now that's old school. I for one wouldn't mind a few locked doors you have to figure out how to open, be it the good ol' find the key routine or even something different.

And I'm in agreement with what some have said. I'd like some of those old style multiple routes and plenty of secrets too. Especially secrets - nothing like a good secret hunt to give the exploration skills a bit of a run. Not enough of the modern games encourage exploration any more.

Reaper · 04-23-2008, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcatkiller

Now that's old school. I for one wouldn't mind a few locked doors you have to figure out how to open, be it the good ol' find the key routine or even something different.

Yeah man, no matter what they say, key cards were cool. Same with boxes and exploding barrels.

trucedAnimal · 04-23-2008, 08:57 AM

What about teleporters? I loved those in DN3D.
Wasn't there one level with a one way teleporter at the end that teleportet you back to the start of the level?
That really pissed me off but it was fun to go through the level again.
I hope there are a few teleporters in DNF.
The teleporters in Prey are cool but I think it's actually more fun when you can't see what's at the other side.

The security cameras were sometimes helpful when they gave you a hint on what you just triggered by pushing a big red button on a wall.
I like buttons. Especially when they're big and red.

Klaus Kinski · 04-23-2008, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trucedAnimal

The teleporters in Prey are cool but I think it's actually more fun when you can't see what's at the other side.

Those aren't teleporter, those are portal and they are the shit right now. Heck, they even made a game about them.

trucedAnimal · 04-24-2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus Kinski

Those aren't teleporter, those are portal and they are the shit right now. Heck, they even made a game about them.

In that case I prefer teleporters over portals. portals should only be used in maps if you want one room over another room.
but i have heard they have other solutions for room over room in those fancy new game engines now.

but since you could actually shoot rockets through those teleporters in DN3D they worked just like portals. the only difference is that you could not see whats on the other side. I think thats just how they should be.
Not shure whats behind that teleporter? maybe some creepy aliens? just throw in a pipebomb and you don't have to worry any longer.

A human fax machine like Gantz would be cool too.

Another question is if the aliens have portable teleporters as in They Live again.
I know it seems off topic but it's relevant for map design whether you can let aliens respawn or not. it's ok to some extent but I hate it when I have ponder where the **** those aliens come from when I enter a room I have devastated before.

Klaus Kinski · 04-24-2008, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trucedAnimal

In that case I prefer teleporters over portals. portals should only be used in maps if you want one room over another room.
but i have heard they have other solutions for room over room in those fancy new game engines now.

Ever heard about a game called Quake? Or maybe Unreal? Does Half-Life ring a bell?
Under what kind of rock have you been hiding, man?

trucedAnimal · 04-24-2008, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus Kinski

Ever heard about a game called Quake?

I have never played it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus Kinski

Or maybe Unreal?

I didnt like it so I only played a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus Kinski

Does Half-Life ring a bell?

I played HL. Also Max Payne, Prey and Crysis. And some adventure games. But thats about it. I'm still waiting for DNF. Until then I mostly play DN3D.

Wasn't Shadow Warrior the first to have room over room? So even the Build-Engine could do it.

I guess even some of those new adventure games have room over room.
Jack Keane has lots of climbing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus Kinski

Under what kind of rock have you been hiding, man?

Ever heard about irony?

Klaus Kinski · 04-24-2008, 05:03 AM

Your continued display of lacking knowledge about gaming engines leaves me no other choice. I must recommend Wikipedia.
This should answer most questions you might or might not have. Enjoy.

^
No, this is neither irony nor sarcasm.

trucedAnimal · 04-24-2008, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus Kinski

Your continued display of lacking knowledge about gaming engines leaves me no other choice.

The Build Engine does not support room over room.
It had to be simulated by "teleporting" the player to another room when entering it. This explains the jumping around on the map when playing.
Shadow Warrior uses the same engine but it was modified to support room over room. But it's still a trick: The Rooms are placed over each other at load time.
Modern engines are fully 3D (not just "2.5D") so that problem does not exist.

That might not be very exact but as far as I know its correct.

So where do I lack knowledge?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus Kinski

I must recommend Wikipedia.

If I'm lacking knowledge already why would I read Wikipedia where every idiot can edit whatever he wants? escpecially when I want to know something about commercial products. The manufactureres probably make sure the articles are in their best interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus Kinski

This should answer most questions you might or might not have. Enjoy.

^
No, this is neither irony nor sarcasm.

The only irony I used was to give the impression that I don't know any modern games. What I said was still correct.

I just wanted to make clear that I don't care what is "the shit" today. 2.5D worked fine for me.
Portals are fun but Prey proved to me that they get boring and even annoying after a while.

Mr.Fibbles · 04-24-2008, 06:38 AM

Portals are so 1997~1998. . .

trucedAnimal · 04-24-2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Fibbles

Portals are so 1997~1998. . .

So you dont want any portals?
As long as there are elevators so you dont have to take the stairs.
Modern age game engines still have elevators, right? Wikipedia doesn't say anything about elevators so I'm worried. Maybe they even have escalators now?! fuel for the jetpack is expencive these days, you know.

Mr.Fibbles · 04-24-2008, 07:48 AM

Not that, just people talk about it like it is something new and exciting. It isn't. They have been able to do it for a decade, they just didn't.

Klaus Kinski · 04-24-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trucedAnimal

So where do I lack knowledge?

Everything that comes after BUILD?

trucedAnimal · 04-24-2008, 08:25 AM

That is true. But it was only possible with tricks. some of the rooms had to be rendered twice. But I dont know how they do it now. but with simple teleportals that problem does not exist. thats why I'd prefer those.

PS: They even had portals in Diablo in 1996 :-)

trucedAnimal · 04-24-2008, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus Kinski

Everything that comes after BUILD?

Does HL have protals or teleports? I can't remember those.
Max Payne and Crysis dont have them.

So what do I have to know about them? Teleporting simply consist of changing a players (or objects) coordinates. No problem there as long as no one else is there which might result in a telefrag.
Yeah, take that: I even know what a telefrag is!! And that even though I never played a game that has telefrags. Or I cant remember.
However.
Portals are a bit diffrent since you can see through them so the room behind has to be rendered. That way it often has to be rendered twice. where's the point in that? it just needs more performance, thats all.

I like the old school way where you are beamed any never know if you will come out correctly or not. If you have bad luck you will have your ass turned to the front.

Skiffer · 04-24-2008, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trucedAnimal

Portals are a bit diffrent since you can see through them so the room behind has to be rendered. That way it often has to be rendered twice. where's the point in that? it just needs more performance, thats all.

A real portal is in actuality a direct connection between rooms, not just a teleport + projection, and, as far as I know, no released game has used 'portals' to the full sense of the word.

As for rendering scenes multiple times and sucking up resources, you just have to think shaders, mirrors, projections, FSAA and so forth -- adding / removing 'portals' would have little to no real impact. That said, can't say I want any portals/teleports in DNF.

Blue Lightning · 04-24-2008, 10:18 AM

I still don't really know the difference between a portal and a teleport, and I'm not sure I care. But yes, Half Life had the teleportal thingys. Espicially when you got to Xen and beyond. In fact it was Op4 that had a teleport gun, and you could teleport creatures back to Xen. If you at any time right mouse with it, it would overload and transport YOU to Xen! I thought that was clever.

Anyway, I thought the telportals were cool in DN3D, and would like to see a few in DNF. Just like I would like to see toilets you can drink from for some health points, just like I would like to see camaras and monitors again...just like I would like to have holoduke and roids again.

04-20-2008, 09:29 AM	#1
Blue Lightning	DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! As a DN3D fan, I would like to ask the devs to keep the same level design formula that DN3D had. I do not know if you will be using Levelords services, but just to be safe, I wish you would. DN3D was incredible for many reasons. One of those reasons was it's semi non-linear level design. Many levels had areas where two or even three different paths could lead from one area of a level, to another. In a few cases, there would even be two paths you could take from begining to end! (Hollywood Holocaust and Hotel Hell comes to mind). And some maps were circular in design (Spin Cycle being the most obvious), so you could go left...or you could go right. And of course in all of this, vents are used quite a bit, and Duke was the first to use them (sorry Gordon Freeman ). However, the best part about DN3D's somewhat non-linear level design, was that large parts of the levels were linear, so when you got to the few parts that were not, you really never got lost. It is some of the best level design I have seen a video game. I know Levelord did most of them, and someone else did the rest (name escapes me). So, to the devs...please retain this important formula for DNF. Last edited by Blue Lightning; 04-21-2008 at 09:15 AM.

04-20-2008, 09:43 AM	#2
Commando Nukem	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! I tend to agree, though its possibly that non-linearity may not be as present in this game was it was in Duke3D, it would certainly be nice, particularly in the city scapes to have a little freedom, and not be locked to a visible path like in other recent games. __________________ Open Maw Productions

04-20-2008, 10:50 AM	#3
Alpha-One	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! okay...i think the levels are standing, not that time to bring in some new changes...perhaps its the old way, perhaps something completely different. dont think they´ll try any random changes if they really are close to pre-Alpha

04-20-2008, 11:10 AM	#4
Nihilanth	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! That's something I've mentioned few times, too. The only (or the only out of those that I've played) game that managed to bring that oldschool level structure today is BioShock. Meh, now we say it's a non-linear level design with exploration (). It's already years old. I doubt DNF will have it. Shooter developers don't care about this kind of design/structure anymore. __________________ We were standing on the edge of discovery 2014: The Vanishing of Ethan Carter 2015: SOMA

04-20-2008, 11:26 AM	#5
peoplessi	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Why restrict one self to an older formula, as now days you can even expand on that? I don't see a problem here at all. __________________ Duke Nukem Forever Who am I to judge?

04-20-2008, 05:26 PM	#8
Telee	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Huh, never knew Allen built Freeway. I always thought that level had lots of Levelord elements to it. __________________ Smoker incapacitated Telee

04-20-2008, 07:24 PM	#11
Reaper	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Isn't Allen still working at 3DR? And I always had a sneaking suspicion that Randall Pitchford was Randy Pitchford (ie CEO of Gearbox Software). Apparently Wikipedia says I'm right. He went on to bigger and better (perhaps not better -- I mean, how can you beat working at 3DR? -- but still quite good) things for sure. Last edited by Reaper; 04-20-2008 at 07:27 PM.

04-20-2008, 11:51 PM	#12
Micki!	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Yeah, Allen is still working at 3DRealms, i'm a big fan of Allen because of his teriffic maps and the great part he took in making Duke3D into what it is... I'm expecting quality levels for DNF as well because of his involvement... __________________ A true genius does not need boundaries such as 'common sense'

04-21-2008, 06:29 AM	#15
alexgk	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Lol, I didn't know George was a level desginer for DN3D . He have to focus totally on directing in DNF, so I guess we won't be seeing levels made by him, specially after making them has become a lot more complicated. __________________ Playable demo this year! Confirmed!!

04-21-2008, 07:07 AM	#16
Blue Lightning	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Interesting stuff again...that link that X-Vector provided is some strong sauce. It seems that Levelord designed Pigsty 99 and 44/100 percent. He also takes credit for SOME of Shop N Drop (now Shop N Bag) and XXX Stacy. Frankly, since everybody got over it, and since Levelord has openly stated he wish's he still worked at Apogee/3D Realms because Duke 3D was so fun to make...and since Ritual is no longer... I would like to see GB get Levelord back on the team, and let him and Allen Blum III go to work so they can create one of the (if not the) greatest games of all time, mabey surpassing Half-Life 2, the original DN3D and BioShock. Allen III can handle DNF no doubt...but it would really add something if Levelord was back on the scene! Those two belong as a two-man team. And if GB and LL could put the past behind them, that two man team (Allen and Levelord) would be un-stoppable! How about it George? LL did say some inflammitory stuff, he's got a mouth on him no doubt. Genius usually is like that...hard-to-get along with type personalities. But the talent is there... Level design is everything. Last edited by Blue Lightning; 04-21-2008 at 09:11 AM.

04-21-2008, 08:59 AM	#17
Commando Nukem	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! I agree it would be cool to have a bunch of the old gang back working on the game. Problem is, at this stage realistically that'd be really improbably, my gut tells me level design is probably coming together at this point and achieving whatever they want, cant exactly just drop in a new guy at the last minute to "build some maps" Though it certainly would be awesome if levelord could come back and build some DM maps. __________________ Open Maw Productions

04-21-2008, 09:25 AM	#18
Blue Lightning	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Hey you never know. All it would take is a phone call. I bet LL would love to work on DNF, as I'm sure 3DR would. Who cares about some things said in the past? DNF is a once in a lifetime event. It carries on the Duke Nuke tradition, and DNF has the dubious task of filling some mighty big boots..which is Duke 3D from 1996. DNF has to be as good or even better than DN3D, and DN3D is a tough act to follow. There won't be a second chance. Levelord makes every map he touches turn to gold, just like King Midas. Look what he did with Sin: Emergence...proof that he's "still got it". So it's time to forget the silly feud that happened, and get to work! Go ahead GB, pick up the phone. Last edited by Blue Lightning; 04-21-2008 at 10:41 AM.

04-21-2008, 09:54 AM	#19
Ramen4ever	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! ^ Or you could give the new talent a chance. 3DR did hire quite a few employees. I for one would like to give them a shot and see what they're capable of.

04-21-2008, 10:18 AM	#20
Don Loco	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! I hope, they dont make something like prey out of DNF, it was quite linear, and for this no replay fun..

04-21-2008, 10:58 PM	#21
Malgon	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! I'd prefer levels that exhibited the traits that made DN3D's levels great; multiple routes, and plenty of secrets. That's not to say I don't enjoy games with linear levels (some guide you well without being too obvious about it), but I do miss the old ways, since they help greatly with replayability imo. __________________ -Most wanted games: Doom 4, Tomb Raider, Beyond Good and Evil 2

04-23-2008, 01:38 AM	#23
trucedAnimal	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! in DN3D when you switched to the map view and disabled map following you could find the initials somewhere. of course you could also open the maps in the map editor to see them. I hope in DNF you have to unlock doors like in DN3D. I dont care if you need the keys like in DN3D or something else.

04-23-2008, 02:52 AM	#24
vcatkiller	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Now that's old school. I for one wouldn't mind a few locked doors you have to figure out how to open, be it the good ol' find the key routine or even something different. And I'm in agreement with what some have said. I'd like some of those old style multiple routes and plenty of secrets too. Especially secrets - nothing like a good secret hunt to give the exploration skills a bit of a run. Not enough of the modern games encourage exploration any more.

04-23-2008, 08:57 AM	#26
trucedAnimal	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! What about teleporters? I loved those in DN3D. Wasn't there one level with a one way teleporter at the end that teleportet you back to the start of the level? That really pissed me off but it was fun to go through the level again. I hope there are a few teleporters in DNF. The teleporters in Prey are cool but I think it's actually more fun when you can't see what's at the other side. The security cameras were sometimes helpful when they gave you a hint on what you just triggered by pushing a big red button on a wall. I like buttons. Especially when they're big and red.

04-24-2008, 05:03 AM	#31
Klaus Kinski	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Your continued display of lacking knowledge about gaming engines leaves me no other choice. I must recommend Wikipedia. This should answer most questions you might or might not have. Enjoy. ^ No, this is neither irony nor sarcasm. __________________ "Violence is stupid because an eye for an eye makes everyone blind." - jimbob "But hey when in doubt - Zombies!!!" - Kalki "OMG WTF BOO!!" - Aegeri

04-24-2008, 06:38 AM	#33
Mr.Fibbles	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Portals are so 1997~1998. . . __________________ http://thaunandshad.com

04-24-2008, 07:48 AM	#35
Mr.Fibbles	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! Not that, just people talk about it like it is something new and exciting. It isn't. They have been able to do it for a decade, they just didn't. __________________ http://thaunandshad.com

04-24-2008, 08:25 AM	#37
trucedAnimal	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! That is true. But it was only possible with tricks. some of the rooms had to be rendered twice. But I dont know how they do it now. but with simple teleportals that problem does not exist. thats why I'd prefer those. PS: They even had portals in Diablo in 1996 :-)

04-24-2008, 10:18 AM	#40
Blue Lightning	Re: DNF Level Design. Devs, Keep the DN3D formula! I still don't really know the difference between a portal and a teleport, and I'm not sure I care. But yes, Half Life had the teleportal thingys. Espicially when you got to Xen and beyond. In fact it was Op4 that had a teleport gun, and you could teleport creatures back to Xen. If you at any time right mouse with it, it would overload and transport YOU to Xen! I thought that was clever. Anyway, I thought the telportals were cool in DN3D, and would like to see a few in DNF. Just like I would like to see toilets you can drink from for some health points, just like I would like to see camaras and monitors again...just like I would like to have holoduke and roids again.