Feeling just a little jipped

[GreenDevilJF]

When this game first showed on the marketplace, I was estatic because I had fond memories of Duke Nukem before ( like one time I played with a friend from 6 at night to 8 in the morning), but after going through the first levels I checked the multiplayer menu only to find that split-screen had been excluded.
This game was almost perfect (well for me atleast) but it ended up having this rather stupid flaw, I have seen plenty dissappointed by this and have seen people decide against buying it altogether because of this.

This game has a long, difficult yet fun campaign, interesting levels, awesome weapons, and it's own unique feel from other games which while great and I congradulate 3DR on that but without the ability to share that experience with someone who comes over really kills it for me, which I don't like that happening. The only comment I have ever seen about why the game didn't come with split screen seems to be because people weren't very interested in spending the time adding it.

Now that out of anything leaves me feeling a bit jipped by this game ( of course I could have viewed the comment wrong but still...) I have gotten tired of bouncing around multiple shooters everytime I hang out with someone since most shooters don't have that fun factor this one does, and then I see this game show up like a glitter of hope only to find the main thing I loved about it is gone.

Now this post probably didn't turn out as good as I hoped and the rant is really starting to repeat itself, other than this awesome game but it will probably die out for me.

[Nukkus]

How can you love a feature of the game that never existed?

[Steve]

but after going through the first levels I checked the multiplayer menu only to find that split-screen had been excluded.

Split-screen was NEVER in the PC version. The 360 version is a PC port.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

The old console versions had split screen I believe... but D3d for PC never had split screen.

However, split screen probably should have been included since it was released on console.

[Stevey Boy]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

When this game first showed on the marketplace, I was estatic because I had fond memories of Duke Nukem before ( like one time I played with a friend from 6 at night to 8 in the morning), but after going through the first levels I checked the multiplayer menu only to find that split-screen had been excluded.
This game was almost perfect (well for me atleast) but it ended up having this rather stupid flaw, I have seen plenty dissappointed by this and have seen people decide against buying it altogether because of this.

This game has a long, difficult yet fun campaign, interesting levels, awesome weapons, and it's own unique feel from other games which while great and I congradulate 3DR on that but without the ability to share that experience with someone who comes over really kills it for me, which I don't like that happening. The only comment I have ever seen about why the game didn't come with split screen seems to be because people weren't very interested in spending the time adding it.

Now that out of anything leaves me feeling a bit jipped by this game ( of course I could have viewed the comment wrong but still...) I have gotten tired of bouncing around multiple shooters everytime I hang out with someone since most shooters don't have that fun factor this one does, and then I see this game show up like a glitter of hope only to find the main thing I loved about it is gone.

Now this post probably didn't turn out as good as I hoped and the rant is really starting to repeat itself, other than this awesome game but it will probably die out for me.

Just play co-op over live, loads better than split screen as you get a whole screen to yourself

[GreenDevilJF]

I am well aware that the original didn't have split screen I was referring to DN64. But with just about any shooter that comes to the console, I see split screen as a requirement.

Oh and I hate playing online, and this game lags to the point where is unplayable for me.

[prophecy holder]

It is so much more fun playing with someone in the same room than with someone in on the other side of the world. You can actually communicate easily and not have to wait for someone because they got to do something.

[Vinsane]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

It is so much more fun playing with someone in the same room than with someone in on the other side of the world. You can actually communicate easily and not have to wait for someone because they got to do something.

Don't know about the X-Box, (never played on one) but what makes pc games great is the multyplayer option. Thats the main reason I started home networking in the first place. Beats the hell out of that small, eye straining split screen IMO.

[GreenDevilJF]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

It is so much more fun playing with someone in the same room than with someone in on the other side of the world. You can actually communicate easily and not have to wait for someone because they got to do something.

Exactly, I really don't get this do they think that noone has friends that they actually see? I am pretty sure both of the previous console ports had split screen so why did this get excluded?

If I am not mistaken the reason was little effort towards the port, but I don't think user clips or the rewind time ability was there before and both of those sound like a lot more work than split screen. But of course I could be wrong.

Edit: Since I don't like to double post, can someone tell me (who knows) if split screen can even be added through an update?, I have always wondered if something like that could be applyed to a finished game.

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by Vinsane

Don't know about the X-Box, (never played on one) but what makes pc games great is the multyplayer option. Thats the main reason I started home networking in the first place. Beats the hell out of that small, eye straining split screen IMO.

There is one thing horribly horribly wrong with multiplayer:

KIDS


I'm sorry that i scared many with that post. But you know well as I that there are to many kids playing online games. The kind that scream, yell and whine when you kill them or kill one of there opponents. I've stopped playing CS and CS:S because of kids.

There is also another threat to multiplayer games:

BASEMENT DWELLERS

Most games got this thing where they match you up with others of your skill, but every now and then it puts you in a game where this one (or several) player(s) who is a monster of a gamer that prefers gameplay to girls any day. If you think there is nothing wrong with playing to much....here is the proof.

http://www.gameaxis.com/img/blog/164...core_thumb.jpg

http://kawaiigamer.com/wowguy.jpg

But every now and then you do actually meet a group of people that are cool. But thats rare, like Tyraels armor dropping rare.

[MrBlackCat]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

There is one thing horribly horribly wrong with multiplayer:

KIDS


I'm sorry that i scared many with that post. But you know well as I that there are to many kids playing online games. The kind that scream, yell and whine when you kill them or kill one of there opponents. I've stopped playing CS and CS:S because of kids.

There is also another threat to multiplayer games:

BASEMENT DWELLERS

Most games got this thing where they match you up with others of your skill, but every now and then it puts you in a game where this one (or several) player(s) who is a monster of a gamer that prefers gameplay to girls any day. If you think there is nothing wrong with playing to much....here is the proof.

http://www.gameaxis.com/img/blog/164...core_thumb.jpg

http://kawaiigamer.com/wowguy.jpg

But every now and then you do actually meet a group of people that are cool. But thats rare, like Tyraels armor dropping rare.

This post hits a nail the head... the one many seem to miss. Kids, regardless of age, screw up a lot of on-line gaming. That was a factor in my personal home LAN which currently has 10 PC's... it peaked at 14 PC's actually, around 1998. Anyway... split screen is great for kids... mature/serious adult gamers (of most any age) will spring for a LAN. Personally, I will not even play a split screen console game of the many I have that are capable. It is like going back to AM radio from listening to stereo, or going back to Grayscale television from Color. It isn't worth it. (that analogy is a bit dated for some here probably)
LAN eliminate the problems with kids... when my little cousin starts whining about being a Score bag in Quake for the other players, we can just smack him. See? Ok... really I am not mean, we just give him a bot for his team... ANYWAY... the point: Split screen is not popular... and I can assure you that a nearly indetectably small group really miss it. A developer can't please everyone... so they just have to go with the greatest majority. That isn't necessarily a money based statement either... most game developers want to put more into games they make and most of the time have to trim them to what is reasonable in a given time frame. (Well ok, DNF might be the exception... <hears "reasonable" smash to pieces in the distance> LOL!)

If some don't agree, maybe someone should start a poll to see how great the desire for split-screen multi-player is?
From my experience it would estimate it to be very very small. I don't mean "do you want it" as a feature. I mean more fair like "If it wasn't included, would you still buy the game." kind of fair. Lots of possible polls there.

I don't care for split-screen personally, and I don't knock someone who does at a personal level.
Two points to the original post...
1. I understand the fun of having people in the room playing multi-player... and not just so you can whack them when they whine... it is fun... and loud... and you can bring each other root beer from the fridge. I love it a lot... which is a lot of the reason I am more of a PC person for LAN parties so to speak. I can never go back (or over) to split screen multi-player.
2. If in-room multi-player is important enough to keep you from buying a game or not, then you sound like a PC LAN addict waiting to happen. Split screen is a really diluted form of multi-player in my opinion and the opinions of the majority. (I am glad you enjoy it, again, not knocking your opinion) Plus with PC's and a LAN, you can have far more than two. Until screens get REALLY big, I can't see split screen multi-player beyond two being very fun either.

//end of ramble//
MrBlackCat

[GreenDevilJF]

I don't know what PC LAN is and my PC isn't that good to begin with. I don't care that more people play online generally since I don't feel I should get screwed over for that ( besides out of like 4-5 games I ran into about 5-6 different people, real popular eh?)

There wasn't much effort and resources so instead of just getting an all around good multiplayer down for this port they decided user clips, pictures, and "the rewind time" feature were more important than being able to play local.

I mean, wtf?

[d3ad connection]

LAN is basically where you get all the computers connected to one network and they connect and play the same game. No split screen, everyone gets their own. This kind of setup is very fun (I've hosted a few LAN parties) and competitive (no screen-looking issues, and alot of screaming behind computer screens )

IMO split screen would have been cool but it's not a deal breaker. Besides, these days you can still get a good LAN game of Duke3D set up on PC and you don't need powerful computers for it either.

[GreenDevilJF]

Originally Posted by d3ad connection

LAN is basically where you get all the computers connected to one network and they connect and play the same game. No split screen, everyone gets their own. This kind of setup is very fun (I've hosted a few LAN parties) and competitive (no screen-looking issues, and alot of screaming behind computer screens )

IMO split screen would have been cool but it's not a deal breaker. Besides, these days you can still get a good LAN game of Duke3D set up on PC and you don't need powerful computers for it either.

LAN just sounds like system link. and I don't have DN3D on a PC.

I seriously don't see why out of everything split screen was cut, for some that is just dissallowing the multi altogether and I think that is a bit ridiculous.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

LAN just sounds like system link. and I don't have DN3D on a PC.

You mean system link sounds like LAN.

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

I seriously don't see why out of everything split screen was cut, for some that is just dissallowing the multi altogether and I think that is a bit ridiculous.

And I seriously don't see why you keep complaining. You should have checked out the game features before purchase, really. You just assumed it would have split screen. Constantly repeating yourself on every damn post about split screen isn't going to change a thing. Yes, there is no split screen. Yes, we know you don't like that. Nothing will happen in regards to it. Also, split screen was not cut. It was never in the pc version, which the 360 is a port of. I'm guessing you have only played the N64 version (which is pretty cool). N64 Duke Nukem 3D is an entirely different game to Duke Nukem 3D PC. Have you ever played the original PC version at all?

No split screen annoys you. We get it.

[GreenDevilJF]

Originally Posted by Steve

You mean system link sounds like LAN.

Yeah, yeah I don't care which one came first.

Originally Posted by Steve

And I seriously don't see why you keep complaining. You should have checked out the game features before purchase, really.

I did, I opended the demo played the first two levels and before going back to the arcade I checked the multiplayer menu and didn't ( granted not seeing as an option was kinda pathetic), but since I was focused on the single player and I didn't know that online sucked, I bought it anyway.

Originally Posted by Steve

You just assumed it would have split screen.

I assumed the game would have single player, a multiplayer menu, and an options menu. Guess what, on everything I assumed with the game I was right on the money.

Originally Posted by Steve

Constantly repeating yourself on every damn post about split screen isn't going to change a thing.

I Constantly repeat myself on every damn post about split screen because surprise, surprise that is the topic of the thread, why in a topic I made about split screen would I talk about other things?

Originally Posted by Steve

Yes, there is no split screen. Yes, we know you don't like that. Nothing will happen in regards to it.

I have no reason not to try, now whether or not I think anything will happen is a whole other thing.

Originally Posted by Steve

Also, split screen was not cut. It was never in the pc version, which the 360 is a port of.

[B]I don't care about what was in the PC version, they had to reformat the game for it to play on the X360 so adding things isn't an impossibility.

The thing that gets me is that with there limited time and resources did they use those to put in useless crap like user clips, pictures, and some timeline during campaign levelsinstead of making sure the multiplayer was as developed as possible. They know they were going to dissappoint people by leaving split screen out, but who would have been dissappointed by those extras not being there?

Originally Posted by Steve

I'm guessing you have only played the N64 version (which is pretty cool). N64 Duke Nukem 3D is an entirely different game to Duke Nukem 3D PC. Have you ever played the original PC version at all?

It was a port of Duke Nukem 3D done by GT interactive, who did a few things I applaud them for, they adding split screen, they changed some of the maps ( slight variety isn't a bad thing), and they added bots ( not something I would expect in this game but still). However the controls are god awful in comparison to just about every other shooter I have played.

I don't play games on the PC, and since I never said that split screen was in the PC version I don't see how that matters.

Originally Posted by Steve

No split screen annoys you. We get it.

I would ******* hope so, it isn't like I was hiding it.

[MrBlackCat]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

**** snip****
I don't care about what was in the PC version, they had to reformat the game for it to play on the X360 so adding things isn't an impossibility.

The thing that gets me is that with there limited time and resources did they use those to put in useless crap like user clips, pictures, and some timeline during campaign levelsinstead of making sure the multiplayer was as developed as possible. They know they were going to dissappoint people by leaving split screen out, but who would have been dissappointed by those extras not being there?

It was a port of Duke Nukem 3D done by GT interactive, who did a few things I applaud them for, they adding split screen, they changed some of the maps ( slight variety isn't a bad thing), and they added bots ( not something I would expect in this game but still).

****snip****

I will answer a couple of things and explain a couple of things and see if this helps... then maybe someone will come along and refine it down to three sentences to get the same point across. (as usually happens).

I programmed more back in the days where K-Lines meant something... (no one will get this sentence, it is for my entertainment)

Anyway... GreenDevilJF, I am really sorry you are so worked up about this, so here is my point of view included in some clarity from some of the above posts.

LAN...
Acronym for Local Area Network. Yes, system link for 64 was a type of LAN you could say, but somewhat limited... more like a Serial Port connection game on PC's. "Network" being a way to connect computers to communicate. In this case, Duke Nukem 3D for the PC (and hundreds of other games) were connected via Ethernet cards/cables. Normally using the protocol (language) of IPX (as opposed to TCP/IP the protocol of the internet) Ethernet runs at a minimum of 10,000,000 bits per second at the data transfer level. (no lag... ever) It is simple to set up. If an Ethernet port isn't built into a PC already, an Ethernet card costing $10 is sufficient. With some cable system types you don't even need a hub, you just use "T" connectors at the computers and coax cable to chain them together. Cheap. In my personal LAN, the computers are mostly Pentium, but a fast 486 runs Duke Nukem 3D equally to a Pentium. Again, cheap.

The advantage I like is that once you have a LAN setup, others can bring over their computers and plug in at any time. Adding another player is usually as cheap as the cable. I have bought 6ft Ethernet cables (RJ45 Twisted Pair) at the Dollar Tree. (yep, $1) You can then play any of the 1000+ games on your LAN... I have around 40 just First Person Shooters and their add-ons “ready to rock”, on mine at any time. DooM 1 & 2, Heretic 1 & 2, HeXen 1 & 2, Quake 1 & 2, Magic Carpet 1 & 2... all the Build engine games like Duke Nukem 3D, Shadow Warrior, Blood, TekWar, Witchaven 1 & 2, the list goes on and on. There are many other network games out there as well. I have LAN versions of checkers, Chinese checkers, chess, classic battleship, and about 30 others, all ready to rock.

Back to your post...
I realize your point is that split screen isn’t in the game you bought and you wanted it to be.
I am not a master programmer but I am a programmer... here is my understanding.
The Duke 64 version you are familiar with isn’t exactly a direct port because of the engine type it is written on. They had to re-code a lot of things I am sure. I don’t know how code on an old console worked compared to PC’s. I don’t know how modular a game like Duke 3D is written, but I doubt it is very transportable. Because of so much re-structure of the engine code (not like the engine math, but the surrounding code) and the developers being console developers adding split-screen, in the scope of re-programming half the engine anyway, wasn’t a huge ordeal. The X-Box port was obviously a pretty direct port with no major overhaul of the in-game code. Of course there would be adaptations, but nothing fundamentally different like the Duke Nukem 64 Port. The added features you don’t appreciate were probably very peripheral and not a big deal to add compared to split-screen. As a programmer, I can’t imagine all that would need to change to add split-screen... staggering to me, but I am not experienced in game programmer by any means.
Because of this I don’t agree with your statement:
“The thing that gets me is that with there limited time and resources did they use those to put in useless crap like user clips, pictures, and some timeline during campaign levelsinstead of making sure the multiplayer was as developed as possible. They know they were going to dissappoint people by leaving split screen out, but who would have been dissappointed by those extras not being there?”
One, adding split screen for a PC game would likely have taken far longer to develop compared to any of the relatively simple “useless crap” they did add.
Second, 3D Realms didn’t leave out split screen... it isn’t like they ported the 64 port back to X-Box... as I stated above they would not have had time to re-write half the engine to add it to a game that never had it in the first place. Of course it could be added, but it could take many months if not more than a year to do it. If they had spent the time and resources to do this, how much effect to you really believe this would have impacted game sales one way or the other? The game has a limited sales potential anyway. 3D Realms might feel like our family with so much passion in their game(s) but they are a business. It isn’t fair to expect them to just give us things… like split screen. From my perspective on what it would take to add split screen to Duke Nukem 3D, it could not have possibly paid for itself.
Be brave, try a fair poll. I think those who require split screens will be in a very small minority. Then take that sample as a ratio of all the sales of the X-Box Duke 3D and see if the split screen feature development time could have paid for itself. I could be wrong, but I am thinking not even close.

MrBlackCat

[Steve]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

some words about split screen

Yeah, I've heard it before. Awesome

[Superczar]

Someone that actually likes the headache-inducing pain in the ass that is 2-player splitscreen?

[ZuljinRaynor]

Not to mention a game that is a basic carbon copy of the PC version is better than no game at all.

[Deathspawner]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

They know they were going to disappoint people by leaving split screen out, but who would have been disappointed by those extras not being there?

I think it would be difficult to miss something that we wouldn't have even known about, but I know I appreciate the level timeline feature. It's brilliant, and made the game much more fun (it's never enjoyable having to manually save and load constantly). Just because you don't particularly care for the features that are there doesn't mean others agree with you.

The fact is, it's very unlikely that 3DR didn't consider a split-screen option during this port, but with most things development, they probably didn't see the reward of having it included being worth the costs of implementation. Like MrBlackCat said, adding something like this isn't something that can be done in the span of a few hours. Rather, it would take a certain developer away from whatever else they are working on (perhaps DNF) of more importance to get it done.

Aside from that fact that this is a PC port, 3DR probably saw no interest in split-screen because it would be so headache-inducing. It's not so much a problem with single-player, but imagine cutting the entire gameplay-area in two... it would amplify things. DN3D doesn't have the most robust engine to begin with, and even the single-player experience leaves a bit to be desired. To essentially cut the screen in half wouldn't be fun at all (at least to me).

There were even more significant things "missing" from this version (authorized expansion packs, higher-resolution graphics, cheat codes, less whining on the forums about missing features, et cetera). We can't have it all.

[Kristian Joensen]

GreenDevilJF, you use the word "cut" that implies something was already there and then was removed in the porting process. That is not the case with split-screen multiplayer, it wasn't already there.

[GreenDevilJF]

Originally Posted by Deathspawner

There were even more significant things "missing" from this version (authorized expansion packs, higher-resolution graphics, cheat codes, less whining on the forums about missing features, et cetera). We can't have it all.

If the port wasn't half assed than yes those would all be a possibilty.

But the last one confuses me, because I have looked at most threads and this place generally seems to be "The Great ship Asskisser". Unlike what there statistics about online vs. split screen, and such there seems to be quite a few dissappointed people ( from what I have seen) and it seems to always be about this.

When someone buys a game the game should have the features to keep them entertained (atleast until they get bored of it), but this game doesn't have that. Now I don't really see why they thought online was worth a crap, especially in an arcade game where online dies fairly fast.

[Steve]

You could always have two 360 controllers and pretend that there's split screen. Hmm. Pretend. I think that's a solution for all

[GreenDevilJF]

Originally Posted by Steve

You could always have two 360 controllers and pretend that there's split screen. Hmm. Pretend. I think that's a solution for all

No, now stop posting in this thread.

[d3ad connection]

How about you just give up, because it's not happening. Sorry, but it's not. They're done with it, and now they're working on DNF again. Going on here and trolling isn't going to change a thing.

[ZuljinRaynor]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

If the port wasn't half assed than yes those would all be a possibilty.

Half-Assed? Natively runs on Xbox. It's not half-assed. Half-assed would be emulation, broken normal features.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

No, now stop posting in this thread.

You could always pretend I'm not posting

[Echo Black]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

If the port wasn't half assed than yes those would all be a possibilty.

But the last one confuses me, because I have looked at most threads and this place generally seems to be "The Great ship Asskisser". Unlike what there statistics about online vs. split screen, and such there seems to be quite a few dissappointed people ( from what I have seen) and it seems to always be about this.

When someone buys a game the game should have the features to keep them entertained (atleast until they get bored of it), but this game doesn't have that. Now I don't really see why they thought online was worth a crap, especially in an arcade game where online dies fairly fast.

Could you not have informed yourself about the presence (or lack thereof) of splitscreen? You should examine what you're buying before actually buying it, don't you agree? A quick google search or even a forum post could have answered your question, and that would have been much more rational than buying the product and hoping it had what you wanted in it.

I can say with near certainty that the functionality won't get added, so if the lack of splitscreen was a deal breaker to you, yeah, your fault for skipping over the fine print. No point in complaining now.

[GreenDevilJF]

Originally Posted by d3ad connection

How about you just give up, because it's not happening. Sorry, but it's not. They're done with it, and now they're working on DNF again. Going on here and trolling isn't going to change a thing.

I have no plans to give up (well not from random users telling me to) nor do I have any plans not to try. Trolling?, sure why not.

Echo Black: I am fairly certain I have already answered your questions on a different post in this thread.

ZujinRaynor: Making a game work is a requirement, it doesn't stop the whole port from feeling half assed.

[d3ad connection]

Fine, if you want to keep going with this, go ahead. You'll only end up with disappointment.

[Echo Black]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

Echo Black: I am fairly certain I have already answered your questions on a different post in this thread.

I was not asking anything in reality, these "questions" were meant to bridge the rhetorical gap to my last sentence.

The gist of what I mean is: You messed up, not 3D Realms. By not adding splitscreen they were likely aware of the sales they'd deprive themselves of in the long run. They didn't ever confirm it would have it, so no foul play on their part. If you buy a game expecting a feature for whatever reason but don't bother to confirm your assumptions...It's your fault if you don't get what you wanted. What will complaining solve?

[GreenDevilJF]

Originally Posted by Echo Black

I was not asking anything in reality, these "questions" were meant to bridge the rhetorical gap to my last sentence.

The gist of what I mean is: You messed up, not 3D Realms. By not adding splitscreen they were likely aware of the sales they'd deprive themselves of in the long run. They didn't ever confirm it would have it, so no foul play on their part. If you buy a game expecting a feature for whatever reason but don't bother to confirm your assumptions...It's your fault if you don't get what you wanted. What will complaining solve?

It doesn't matter that your "questions" were rhetorical, I already got your point and it was explained earlier in the thread.

[Echo Black]

Originally Posted by GreenDevilJF

It doesn't matter that your "questions" were rhetorical, I already got your point and it was explained earlier in the thread.

Then this thread should be closed. Good day.