To George and the Rest of the DNF Team

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by Skiffer

I want to touch babies. B)

There's anyone who doesn't?

[defragen1]

Originally Posted by TripleH

a new user which is positive about all this drama?? It must be George him self using fake account

you know if dukes get's released. I think most of us will be dissapointed. Not by a game, but by the fact, that it is out, you don't have to wait it anymore. I mean. The rescent 12 years I had a dream, I had to live what for. I go to shacknews and read funny comments, read jokes about duke and so on. And once it's out, all fun is gone..

nah not really.. I remember when I waited for hl2 ( it felt like an eternity )
its all just part of the experience and playing the game is not where it ends... its where it continues

I just hope when they do released DNF that they will also release it for steam

[Antosa]

Originally Posted by Tualmasok

Anyone who thinks the development of DNF was managed well, please raise your hand, and justify your reasoning.

I think the development of DNF was managed very bad, but what I saw of the game I feel very good and I hope one day to play DNF, even if they are tired of waiting.

[LeonZyCoene]

This is a bit of a non sequitur, but do we have any insight as to the possible length of the game?

[Arexx]

***THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE*** Well said, I agree with you 100%. You summed up my feelings very well, it's nice to see others that share them. Not all of us have turned our backs on 3DRealms.

[wh4tever]

[QUOTE=LeonZyCoene;883125]I think the length of development of this game is pretty solid indication that they really were trying to create something special. They could have wrapped this game up a thousand times over, that's what they do for a living. But they decided not to. No game is delayed for twelve years by the will of the developers if they're just looking to turn a profit.
QUOTE]


My point is that there is a finite time you can use as an excuse for developing a "special" game. If you payed me to build you a house but you died of old age before it was built,most people would deem that to be unreasonable. You cannot take forever otherwise the financials don't stack And as I tried to point out, other changes outside of your control will mean you will never finish i.e platform changes (hardware and software), customer expectations and so on.So the idea that you can take as long as you like does not stand.

If you dissagree, pay me £30 and I'll produce the bloody game to any spec you like. It will be the best ever but only ready "when it's done".

[lordlonelobo]

My point is that there is a finite time you can use as an excuse for developing a "special" game. If you payed me to build you a house but you died of old age before it was built,most people would deem that to be unreasonable.

The ancient Egyptians did that sort of thing with their pharaohs.

If you dissagree, pay me £30 and I'll produce the bloody game to any spec you like. It will be the best ever but only ready "when it's done".

The issue that remains is the fact you didn't pay anything to 3DR.

[LeonZyCoene]

My point is that there is a finite time you can use as an excuse for developing a "special" game.If you payed me to build you a house but you died of old age before it was built,most people would deem that to be unreasonable. You cannot take forever otherwise the financials don't stack And as I tried to point out, other changes outside of your control will mean you will never finish i.e platform changes (hardware and software), customer expectations and so on.So the idea that you can take as long as you like does not stand.

If you dissagree, pay me £30 and I'll produce the bloody game to any spec you like. It will be the best ever but only ready "when it's done".

And my point is that there is a finite time you can use "development hell" as an excuse for delaying a game so long. I readily and fully acknowledged that they had made mistakes, and I did so in my very first post. But these guys are game developers, my friend. They do this for a living, and they produce and publish games very consistently, which means that for a game like Duke Nukem Forever to have been in development for over twelve years there must have been something more at hand than just "development hell".

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

The issue that remains is the fact you didn't pay anything to 3DR.

Most of us bought prey, Duke 3D and other games. Not all the money goes to them so in a way we did pay 3DR.

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

Most of us bought prey, Duke 3D and other games. Not all the money goes to them so in a way we did pay 3DR.

But you're not paying for DNF, you were paying for another game. Which is what I meant.

[Semaj]

Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene

They do this for a living, and they produce and publish games very consistently, which means that for a game like Duke Nukem Forever to have been in development for over twelve years there must have been something more at hand than just "development hell".

Just because they do it for a living doesn't mean they are flawless; nothing prevents professionals from making big screw-ups in their own field. 3DR is not the best game developer, and therefor is it not illogical to assume they have made mistakes when developing their game. To take 12+ years to make 1 game is a very big mistake. There is no evidence that they are doing anything special or great, that they haven't simply wasted their time.

3DR has also not done anything significant over the years. The most recent franchises that is not Duke is Max Payne and Prey, one of which is fairly old already and the other flopped a bit. Its outsourced Duke IP product also met little success.

[LeonZyCoene]

Just because they do it for a living doesn't mean they are flawless;

Ugh, I hate when people respond to me without reading what I said. I readily and fully acknowledged that they had made mistakes, and I did so in my very first post.

nothing prevents professionals from making big screw-ups in their own field.

The odds that this game was delayed for twelve years because of development hell are incredibly slim. It's very unlikely that they were that consistently incompetent for twelve years straight, especially when they were developing other games just fine.

3DR is not the best game developer, and therefor is it not illogical to assume they have made mistakes when developing their game.

Wut?

To take 12+ years to make 1 game is a very big mistake.

Actually, as far as a marketing strategy goes, it seems to have been working damn well for over a decade.

There is no evidence that they are doing anything special or great, that they haven't simply wasted their time.

Except all the leaked gameplay footage, incredibly detailed rendered models, and this.

[bladerunner]

yeah, THIS ! God it hurts as to what could have been. Thank you George Broussard. Thank you so ******* much!!

[Tualmasok]

Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene

This is a bit of a non sequitur, but do we have any insight as to the possible length of the game?

Apparently if you played it non-stop from start to finish you would die of old age before the intro was finished.

[5ththrax]

Cool story, bro

[Tualmasok]

*knuckles*

[Semaj]

Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene

Ugh, I hate when people respond to me without reading what I said. I readily and fully acknowledged that they had made mistakes, and I did so in my very first post.

The odds that this game was delayed for twelve years because of development hell are incredibly slim. It's very unlikely that they were that consistently incompetent for twelve years straight, especially when they were developing other games just fine.

Why is it hard to accept that they are in developement hell for 12 years? You said you acknowledge they made mistakes, and yet at the same time rate them so high that you can't accept they haven't really done much in these 12 years. I'm not saying they haven't program anything; just that they went around the wrong way. Everytime they done something, they said it can be done better and restart again. After continuing this cycle for a long time they still haven't got anything they want to show. This is inexcusable, as any good development should have a cut-off point. Their incompetance arise from fact they never made any progress on the actual development (once again, not that they don't have coded anything, but that they are still no more closer to release then they were a number of years ago). And the leaked footage doesn't imply they are close to release; they could always throw all the effort away just like they have in the past.

What other game have they develop after Duke3D? Most of the other ports and franchise are outsourced, and the really in house game they have done recently is the XBLA port.

Actually, as far as a marketing strategy goes, it seems to have been working damn well for over a decade.

Except all the leaked gameplay footage, incredibly detailed rendered models, and this.

That strategy hurts more that it helps. As other overdue game demonstrate, the longer it is in development the higher quality people expect from it. Everyone already has a ridiculous expectaion of DNF, it can pretty much never be what people expect it to be. If it is release, it is likely that people will complain about everything in it simply because they expect it to be perfect. This straegy haven't proven itself yet, mainly due to the fact that DNF still hasn't been release, so the actual result could have backfired. Even if this strategy help sell DNF, due to the massive hyping, it may still hurt the franchise in the long run if DNF massively dissappointed every other gamer that is not a hardcore Duke fan.

As for the leak footage, the anticipation for it may make it look better than it actually is. The Duke fans are satisfied, but it still doesn't really look that much better than every other UE3 game thats out already. So in the end they are still just catching up to other developers on the market; if they had come up with something that could be describe as UE4 when everyone else still uses UE3, then 3DR would have done something special.

[LeonZyCoene]

Originally Posted by Semaj

Why is it hard to accept that they are in developement hell for 12 years?

Because under this hypothesis not only is the record for the longest development for a video game in history set by one element rather than an array of contributing elements, which is unlikely in and of itself, especially at this scale, but it also goes completely against everything we've heard from the team and the overall paradigm of the development.

You said you acknowledge they made mistakes, and yet at the same time rate them so high that you can't accept they haven't really done much in these 12 years.

Oh, I'm sure they've slacked. But that doesn't mean they weren't trying to develop something special. I've personally worked on various projects before, and the more perfectionist I get with them the longer and more sluggish the development becomes.

I'm not saying they haven't program anything; just that they went around the wrong way. Everytime they done something, they said it can be done better and restart again. After continuing this cycle for a long time they still haven't got anything they want to show. This is inexcusable, as any good development should have a cut-off point. Their incompetance arise from fact they never made any progress on the actual development (once again, not that they don't have coded anything, but that they are still no more closer to release then they were a number of years ago). And the leaked footage doesn't imply they are close to release; they could always throw all the effort away just like they have in the past.

Dude, why is it that you are incapable of understanding anything I've said?

Everything I've said follows the narrative of "they made lots of mistakes, and have gotten very unlucky, but it seems apparent that they're trying to develop something special".

What other game have they develop after Duke3D? Most of the other ports and franchise are outsourced, and the really in house game they have done recently is the XBLA port.

That strategy hurts more that it helps. As other overdue game demonstrate, the longer it is in development the higher quality people expect from it. Everyone already has a ridiculous expectaion of DNF, it can pretty much never be what people expect it to be. If it is release, it is likely that people will complain about everything in it simply because they expect it to be perfect. This straegy haven't proven itself yet, mainly due to the fact that DNF still hasn't been release, so the actual result could have backfired. Even if this strategy help sell DNF, due to the massive hyping, it may still hurt the franchise in the long run if DNF massively dissappointed every other gamer that is not a hardcore Duke fan.

As for the leak footage, the anticipation for it may make it look better than it actually is. The Duke fans are satisfied, but it still doesn't really look that much better than every other UE3 game thats out already. So in the end they are still just catching up to other developers on the market; if they had come up with something that could be describe as UE4 when everyone else still uses UE3, then 3DR would have done something special.

I think the game looks pretty damn good, and I think people will be pretty happy with it. I don't think a substantial amount of players or critics will fault the game for not being perfect. They're expecting fun from Duke. That's Duke's forte. And I expect it will deliver just fine and make tons of mo-nay.

[Semaj]

Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene

Because under this hypothesis not only is the record for the longest development for a video game in history set by one element rather than an array of contributing elements, which is unlikely in and of itself, especially at this scale, but it also goes completely against everything we've heard from the team and the overall paradigm of the development.

Before the money trouble arised 3DR was still very assuring at saying DNF will eventually be release, which seems to point that there is no problem elsewhere but at the development process. It is possible that there are other things not mention by 3DR, would they like to do anyways, so I will concede that point.

Oh, I'm sure they've slacked. But that doesn't mean they weren't trying to develop something special. I've personally worked on various projects before, and the more perfectionist I get with them the longer and more sluggish the development becomes.

Then you should know that it is complete unacceptable, for whatever reason and whatever intentions. The end users will be left without a product, and your develpoment team will be stuck with a higher budget than initially required. They want to make something perfect and they failed; they should not get leniency and more encouragement.

Everything I've said follows the narrative of "they made lots of mistakes, and have gotten very unlucky, but it seems apparent that they're trying to develop something special".

I do understand where you come from, and I strongly disagree with it. Like I said above, they may have the best intentions but they still failed. They should not be rewarded with such loyalty, when a similar situation elsewhere in the real world would have damage the responsible party, if not openly punished them for it. A lot of supporters for 3DR seems to think that just because they want to make the best game in mind, it excuse them for failing the goal of actually making the best game ever. Admiration for their intentions should not cover up the failure of their task. Intentions mean nothing, efforts mean little, and results are everything.

However, I do think highly of the developers, I think they deserve what they get paid for. If people want to support those developers, then help them get a new job (if they need help). Defending 3DR is not the same deal, and it is 3DR that is ultimately responsible for not getting this game out.

Beside their failure of making the game, 3DR are actually preventing others from finishing it for them as well. For them to sit on it now, when they know they can do absolutely nothing for it, is not helping. I myself have reservations of whether T2 can do a good job, for other reasons beside "Only 3DR can make the best Duke!". But the fact is we will never have the chance of finding out. Assuming the best outcome, things may turn out just as good. Maybe the people T2 chose are competant and actually makes a game even the old DNF developers enjoy. Maybe the community will enjoy new ideas 3DR wouldn't employ. But because of 3DR, none of that will happen. We lose one more chance at DNF, and 3DR should not receive support for it. I don't blame the developers for this, but once again 3DR is the responsible party.

I will think that neither of us are really objective in our views, but honestly right now 3DR needs less blind loyalty and a harsh wake up call to tell them "You really need to get yourself in gear, or you are going to fail".

I think the game looks pretty damn good...

I think it will be fine as well. But a game like Daikatana would prove that we should be cautious of the fan base.

[LeonZyCoene]

Then you should know that it is complete unacceptable, for whatever reason and whatever intentions. The end users will be left without a product, and your develpoment team will be stuck with a higher budget than initially required. They want to make something perfect and they failed; they should not get leniency and more encouragement.

As far as I know, they're still working on the game, so I suspect us users will eventually receive the product.

I do understand where you come from, and I strongly disagree with it. Like I said above, they may have the best intentions but they still failed.

You can't say they failed until you either have the game in your hands and dislike it, or until the game is officially cancelled.

They should not be rewarded with such loyalty, when a similar situation elsewhere in the real world would have damage the responsible party, if not openly punished them for it.

From my perspective the only people who have a right to bellyache are those who helped fund the game, and personally, I don't give a sheet about Take Two. We're fans. Consumers. We are not in any meaningful way involved in the business aspect of this development, so their misconduct is absolutely meaningless to us. This "real world" business world thing you've cited is absolutely irrelevant to us, so for a fan to sit around and fault 3DRealms for screwing with Take Two is patently absurd. They never promised us anything.

A lot of supporters for 3DR seems to think that just because they want to make the best game in mind, it excuse them for failing the goal of actually making the best game ever. Admiration for their intentions should not cover up the failure of their task. Intentions mean nothing, efforts mean little, and results are everything.

I don't believe anyone is under the impression that they're trying to make "the best game ever". And, regardless, you can't bitch about them falling short until you've actually played the game. That's like bitching about a film (a film which has been shrouded in secrecy for a decade) before you've even seen the trailer.

However, I do think highly of the developers, I think they deserve what they get paid for. If people want to support those developers, then help them get a new job (if they need help). Defending 3DR is not the same deal, and it is 3DR that is ultimately responsible for not getting this game out.

Beside their failure of making the game, 3DR are actually preventing others from finishing it for them as well. For them to sit on it now, when they know they can do absolutely nothing for it, is not helping.

Eh... I would seriously be upset if anyone but 3DRealms was in control of the development of the game.

I myself have reservations of whether T2 can do a good job, for other reasons beside "Only 3DR can make the best Duke!". But the fact is we will never have the chance of finding out. Assuming the best outcome, things may turn out just as good. Maybe the people T2 chose are competant and actually makes a game even the old DNF developers enjoy. Maybe the community will enjoy new ideas 3DR wouldn't employ. But because of 3DR, none of that will happen. We lose one more chance at DNF, and 3DR should not receive support for it. I don't blame the developers for this, but once again 3DR is the responsible party.

I am a big believer in directors, writers, authors, and artists doing their own work. For someone else to come in and work on the game, it would be like Stephen Spielberg coming in to finish Kubrick's AI. We'll end up with a robot f***ing crying in the end or something. 3DRealms is one of the very few developers who seem to operate for reasons not solely revolving around money.

I will think that neither of us are really objective in our views, but honestly right now 3DR needs less blind loyalty and a harsh wake up call to tell them "You really need to get yourself in gear, or you are going to fail".

I think they've had more than enough of a harsh wake up call, and I offer them nothing but admirable yet sage minded support.

[Semaj]

Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene

You can't say they failed until you either have the game in your hands and dislike it, or until the game is officially cancelled.

I can say they fail at releasing the product. I make no assumption to say the product is of bad quality, I'm saying the product likely wouldn't come out at all. I can see that they aren't ready for release even without having played the game. You can wait for the official annoucement all you want, but that is not a viable defense for 3DR. Just because they haven't said they've given up, doesn't mean they still have what it takes to finish it.

From my perspective the only people who have a right to bellyache are those who helped fund the game, and personally, I don't give a sheet about Take Two. We're fans. Consumers. We are not in any meaningful way involved in the business aspect of this development, so their misconduct is absolutely meaningless to us. This "real world" business world thing you've cited is absolutely irrelevant to us, so for a fan to sit around and fault 3DRealms for screwing with Take Two is patently absurd. They never promised us anything.

Everyone seems to sure like to throw the word promise around nowadays. If 3DR cancels DNF without annoucing they were making it, then its ok because people aren't expecting it. But since they made the choice to annouce it 12 years ago, shouldn't they have make something by now? I know its not a contract to say 3DR owes any fans anything, but don't they have a duty to finish making something they said they are going to make? For the record, 3DR doesn't owe me anything, but I am dissappointed in the choices it made and the path it has taken.

The "real world" business thing is not irrelevant. If MS annouced they are going to release Win7 and then sometime later said they decided to cancel it, I would imagine there to be some backlash for such an event. MS has no obligation to give a new product to the end users, but you can bet the lack of a product will instill negative comments among the would-be users. The same can be said here. People that want to play it, have a right to be mad that they can't play it.

I don't believe anyone is under the impression that they're trying to make "the best game ever". And, regardless, you can't bitch about them falling short until you've actually played the game. That's like bitching about a film (a film which has been shrouded in secrecy for a decade) before you've even seen the trailer.

If we agree they were being perfectionist in the past, I think it is simple to deduce that they were trying to make a game be as great as possible. So even if they did not said the exact words, I believe the intent is always there in whatever words they have chosen to use. And again, I am not complaining at the quality of the game, but at the lack of existence of the game.

Eh... I would seriously be upset if anyone but 3DRealms was in control of the development of the game.

I am a big believer in directors, writers, authors, and artists doing their own work. For someone else to come in and work on the game, it would be like Stephen Spielberg coming in to finish Kubrick's AI. We'll end up with a robot f***ing crying in the end or something.

This defense, while it has merit, doesn't imply the same outcome for all cases just because there is one bad example. I think a new video game would be more like a recreation than a continuation. In this case it would be more like Peter Jackson recreating LTOR as movies with no direct guidence from JRR Tolkien. A movie shares more simliarities to an other movie than a game does with an other game, because the definition of a "game" is that much more general.

3DRealms is one of the very few developers who seem to operate for reasons not solely revolving around money.

They also don't seem to grasp the idea of releasing things in due time. At least others had enough foresight to say when enough is enough.

I offer them nothing but admirable yet sage minded support.

It sure sounded more like feverish devotion. Remember this:

I want you to be able to make your baby, to birth it through your canal of creativity. And I want to sit with your baby, I want to play with your baby, and I want to touch your baby...

You still have one fan's unconditional understanding and support

[ManhattanProject]

Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene

And I want to sit with your baby, I want to play with your baby, and I want to touch your baby...

[LeonZyCoene]

I can say they fail at releasing the product.

Not really. It's not like they missed a deadline or something.

I make no assumption to say the product is of bad quality, I'm saying the product likely wouldn't come out at all. I can see that they aren't ready for release even without having played the game. You can wait for the official annoucement all you want, but that is not a viable defense for 3DR. Just because they haven't said they've given up, doesn't mean they still have what it takes to finish it.

As far as the documentation concerning the lawsuit is concerned, they're still working on DNF. 3DRealms is still operating. They've invested millions of their own dollars into this game. All indications are that this game will be very profitable. The mere mention of updated news elicits major hype. I'm sorry, all roads point to: yes, this game will come out.

Everyone seems to sure like to throw the word promise around nowadays. If 3DR cancels DNF without annoucing they were making it, then its ok because people aren't expecting it. But since they made the choice to annouce it 12 years ago, shouldn't they have make something by now? I know its not a contract to say 3DR owes any fans anything, but don't they have a duty to finish making something they said they are going to make?

You're the one who seems so certain the game isn't going to come out, so I don't know why you're asking me, somebody who is fairly certain the game will actually come out.

The "real world" business thing is not irrelevant. If MS annouced they are going to release Win7 and then sometime later said they decided to cancel it, I would imagine there to be some backlash for such an event. MS has no obligation to give a new product to the end users, but you can bet the lack of a product will instill negative comments among the would-be users. The same can be said here. People that want to play it, have a right to be mad that they can't play it.

No, it is irrelevant. 3DRealms is not Microsoft, they do not develop tools to be used by businesses and professionals. They make f***ing games. The business end of this story does not involve us, period. We are only watching.

If we agree they were being perfectionist in the past, I think it is simple to deduce that they were trying to make a game be as great as possible. So even if they did not said the exact words, I believe the intent is always there in whatever words they have chosen to use. And again, I am not complaining at the quality of the game, but at the lack of existence of the game.

Erm...

This defense, while it has merit, doesn't imply the same outcome for all cases just because there is one bad example. I think a new video game would be more like a recreation than a continuation. In this case it would be more like Peter Jackson recreating LTOR as movies with no direct guidence from JRR Tolkien. A movie shares more simliarities to an other movie than a game does with an other game, because the definition of a "game" is that much more general.

Well, considering that this game is of epic historical development for the gaming industry, and that it seems like they're going for somewhat of a masterpiece, I think it would be a shame for anyone to take it over halfway and finish it themselves. It would be as if Kubrick had filmed half of Napoleon and George Lucas decided to finish it. Bad news for art. Bad news for fun.

They also don't seem to grasp the idea of releasing things in due time. At least others had enough foresight to say when enough is enough.

Nobody is happy about the long development. But, seriously, you have no grounds to complain. They told you a million times. It'll be out when it's done. That implies a long time, and you should suck it up and deal with it. It's not a flu vaccine. It's not a New Deal economic package. It's a video game, just a video game, so to actually be sincerely mad at the 3DRealms team about this is pretty absurd.

It sure sounded more like feverish devotion. Remember this:

Ill use of the word "unconditional". Fair enough. But I'm sure you understand the connotations.

---------- Post added at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 11:25 PM ----------

I'd like to just add (Wiki):

In a subsequent interview with 1UP.com on June 5, 2008, Jason Hall described the game as "amazing" with the summation, "This might be the only game in history worth waiting 12 years for, perhaps longer.... It was good."

[Semaj]

Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene

Not really. It's not like they missed a deadline or something.

As far as the documentation concerning the lawsuit is concerned, they're still working on DNF. 3DRealms is still operating. They've invested millions of their own dollars into this game. All indications are that this game will be very profitable. The mere mention of updated news elicits major hype. I'm sorry, all roads point to: yes, this game will come out.

You're the one who seems so certain the game isn't going to come out, so I don't know why you're asking me, somebody who is fairly certain the game will actually come out.

I only wanted to show the absurdness at believing in 3DR's abilitiy to finish the game. Right now I believe they are bluffing and it would only be some time before they make their announcement. Granted I have no proof, but there is also no proof that 3DR still has any capability to develop and release the game, considering they fired the core development team. I did not say they don't want to release the game, I said they don't have the ability to do so. The game will be profitable when released, but unless the two remaining members of 3DR can magically finish everything by themselves, it won't be release and so it won't generate any money for 3DR.

We are only watching.

It's fine if you are able to take a dissappointment without getting mad. But there will be people that feels different from you, and it won't be your place to deny them.

Well, considering that this game is of epic historical development for the gaming industry, and that it seems like they're going for somewhat of a masterpiece, I think it would be a shame for anyone to take it over halfway and finish it themselves. It would be as if Kubrick had filmed half of Napoleon and George Lucas decided to finish it. Bad news for art. Bad news for fun.

You are already predispose to hate it if it were done by anyone else. I would at least give it a chance. 3DR is good at making Duke, but other can still do as well or maybe even better. Sometimes the unknown path may bring out pleasant surprises.

Nobody is happy about the long development. But, seriously, you have no grounds to complain. They told you a million times. It'll be out when it's done. That implies a long time, and you should suck it up and deal with it. It's not a flu vaccine. It's not a New Deal economic package. It's a video game, just a video game, so to actually be sincerely mad at the 3DRealms team about this is pretty absurd.

To be honest, I would not be surprised if 3DR annouce cancellation sometime down the road. I have other things to do, but I would still feel sad to see 3DR not finish DNF like they said they would. Only the most optimistic of fans can believe that even if 3DR manages to win the lawsuits without spending a lot of money one way or an other, they will still able to pay the (rest of the) development cost of DNF and release the game. I do have some grounds to complain, since it seems like there is no way in Hell 3DR can release this game in any form. If 3DR somehow manages, against overwhelming odds, to prove me wrong, then I will admit it.

I would have like to use the word "betrayed", but I do feel that is too strong since I simply have no confidence in them. However, 3DR surely haven't done anything worth defending either. If they had made an other good title, by themselves, then we would at least have some material. We could have said "they didn't work on DNF cause of making this other title", but all they did was outsourced the Duke IP and act as producer for other studios. After all this time of supposed development work, 3DR still manage to not get it done for whatever reason. Their mismanagement of DNF alone is grounds for complain; at the least we should see if someone else can handle it better, but we can't do that now because of the lawsuit.

I'd like to just add (Wiki):...

None of which would mean anything if we don't get to play it.

[WoodenSword]

Dear LeonZyCoene and others,

Once again....Please take a moment and look at wieder's post history here and at duke4.net (ex-developer of DNF and big fan of duke). It will answer all your questions of whether DNF has a future or not.

Once again...IT'S NOT GOOD FOR THEM to make an official statement about DNF cancellation (they do have lawsuit against them about this specific issue,don't they??? Official statement means they will automatically lose the case!! GOD it's so simple.

and why should they make that statement? Maybe a miracle happens (yes i know it won't happen ) and DNF finds an investor (yes i know it won't). But why eliminate this chance with such statement? There is no gain for them.

Many games have been cancelled without a public statement by the company.

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

Many games have been cancelled without a public statement by the company.

Most of those games were not billed as the greatest action game of all time neither did they have a 13+ year development cycle. Besides, most of those games were under the radar and barely anyone cared about them.

[WoodenSword]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

Most of those games were not billed as the greatest action game of all time neither did they have a 13+ year development cycle. Besides, most of those games were under the radar and barely anyone cared about them.

Soooo?? What's the point of the announcement for them? For us it is important of course, but for them it is not a wise move.They have nothing to win.Few will congratulate them for being honest to say it, with this long history. They have only to lose, since the duke francise is still in their hands. That's what i am saying.

Besides, do you really question wieder's judgement?

[LeonZyCoene]

I only wanted to show the absurdness at believing in 3DR's abilitiy to finish the game.

They could easily find an investor for the most hyped up game in history.

It's fine if you are able to take a dissappointment without getting mad. But there will be people that feels different from you, and it won't be your place to deny them.

I take it upon myself to deny them, because it's childish, petty, and inconsiderate.

You are already predispose to hate it if it were done by anyone else. I would at least give it a chance. 3DR is good at making Duke, but other can still do as well or maybe even better. Sometimes the unknown path may bring out pleasant surprises.

I'm sorry, but I must reiterate my analogy of George Lucas taking over Stanley Kubrick's Napoleon halfway through.

To be honest, I would not be surprised if 3DR annouce cancellation sometime down the road. I have other things to do, but I would still feel sad to see 3DR not finish DNF like they said they would. Only the most optimistic of fans can believe that even if 3DR manages to win the lawsuits without spending a lot of money one way or an other, they will still able to pay the (rest of the) development cost of DNF and release the game. I do have some grounds to complain, since it seems like there is no way in Hell 3DR can release this game in any form. If 3DR somehow manages, against overwhelming odds, to prove me wrong, then I will admit it.

A counter suit, like 3DRealms has engaged themselves in, could very well generate some mo-nay to cover the lawsuit, and then some grievances. Beyond that, I'm sure someone will be interested in funding the most hyped game in history.

I would have like to use the word "betrayed", but I do feel that is too strong since I simply have no confidence in them. However, 3DR surely haven't done anything worth defending either. If they had made an other good title, by themselves, then we would at least have some material. We could have said "they didn't work on DNF cause of making this other title", but all they did was outsourced the Duke IP and act as producer for other studios. After all this time of supposed development work, 3DR still manage to not get it done for whatever reason. Their mismanagement of DNF alone is grounds for complain; at the least we should see if someone else can handle it better, but we can't do that now because of the lawsuit.

If anyone else handled it, then it wouldn't really be Duke Nukem Forever. It would be feigned.

And, again, mismanagement does not seem to be the only element delaying the release of DNF. A think a little creative obsessiveness and perfectionism on the part of the 3DRealms team might also be at hand. But, honestly, to be sore at 3DRealms, when they've promised you nothing and have gone out of their way to illustrate that it may be a long time before the game is released, is childish.

None of which would mean anything if we don't get to play it.

Except that the Wiki quote of Jace Hall describing the game does mean something in the context of this discussion when considering that you've been consistently trying to downplay the quality of the game for the majority of the discussion.

[TripleH]

Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene

If anyone else handled it, then it wouldn't really be Duke Nukem Forever. It would be feigned.

You dont know that. Unreal Tournament creators could release like 3 or 4 good duke games in 13 years like they did with their own games. If anyone else handled it, then it would be released at least. With 3drealms we are lucky if we get at least 1 game. And you say "the most hyped up game in history"... noway it was the most hyped like 8 years ago. The gaming has changed. New players do not know Duke and don't care.

[Semaj]

Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene

They could easily find an investor for the most hyped up game in history.

And you have what fact to back this up? Nobody wants to be involve with 3DR after this whole lawsuit thing.

I take it upon myself to deny them, because it's childish, petty, and inconsiderate.

How close minded of you. You are just overly optimistic like every other die-hard 3DR defenders.

A counter suit, like 3DRealms has engaged themselves in, could very well generate some mo-nay to cover the lawsuit, and then some grievances. Beyond that, I'm sure someone will be interested in funding the most hyped game in history.

Take two has much more grounds on DNF itself, on the fact that 3DR likely isn't able to finish DNF due to company downsizing. Even if T2 and 3DR each win parts of the lawsuit, 3DR still wouldn't have much cash reserves left, unless they really did hide a lot of money in some foreign banks. Otherwise 3DR wouldn't have downsized itself (and I don't believe in the conspiracy theory of 3DR doing so just for money to fight the lawsuit). 3DR would have to win the entire thing outright, and that just doesn't seem likely.

Once again I have doubts about any other publisher picking up this game, even if it is the most hyped. Unless someone specifically annouce an interest in it, you are going on with nothing but your own speculation.

And, again, mismanagement does not seem to be the only element delaying the release of DNF. A think a little creative obsessiveness and perfectionism on the part of the 3DRealms team might also be at hand. But, honestly, to be sore at 3DRealms, when they've promised you nothing and have gone out of their way to illustrate that it may be a long time before the game is released, is childish.

3DR should not be forgiven for making such mistakes. If they knew they didn't have anything ready, they should have just said so. I wouldn't mind if 3DR had cancel DNF before, and then annouce it back once they are close to release. But to keep the hype for so long, and to lead the gamers along for so long, without actually finishing the damn thing is wrong. And its "when its done" speech is simply 3DR giving the finger to anyone that wants to care about DNF. It is no different than 3DR telling someone to STFU anytime one ask for updates on the developement of DNF.

3DR should get blame for its overt obsessiveness and perfectionism, since they should have release the game in due time. But I didn't cite them as they are included in the overall mismanagement.

Except that the Wiki quote of Jace Hall describing the game does mean something in the context of this discussion when considering that you've been consistently trying to downplay the quality of the game for the majority of the discussion.

Once again, I never said this game sucks. Seriously I did not say that. My problem is with 3DR, and how they still haven't release the game. The gameplay for DNF can be great, but if I can't play it in my hands then what good is it to me? If I can't play it, why should the gameplay have an influence on my opinion of 3DR? All I see right now is 3DR failing to release the game. One last time, don't just read the points you want to see.

I'm sorry, but I must reiterate my analogy of George Lucas taking over Stanley Kubrick's Napoleon halfway through.

If anyone else handled it, then it wouldn't really be Duke Nukem Forever. It would be feigned.

So as long as you don't like it no one else can? You accues me of hating the game, which I don't, before its release, and yet you do the same here. You can choose to believe in 3DR as highly as you want to, but they are simply just an other game developer. Duke is strong enough to live on without them, if necessary. An example would be C&C, and how they went from Westwood to EA. EA's C&C games nonetheless received great commercial success, and still have strong communities following them. They are only worse than other even bigger titles, like Starcraft, whom many people would have considered to be better than the Westwood C&C as well, and would not imply declining quality in EA's C&C.