3DR still loaded?

[Tualmasok]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

First of all I am strictly talking ethics here, not legal matters. Second 3DR didn't shut down, they just laid off the DNF development team. Third you can't say what will happen in 2012 until 2012. It is ethically wrong to sue someone based on claiming that they WILL break a contract in the future. If I enter into a contract with you I can't ethically sue you because of some sneaking suspicion that you will break that contract down the line. "Well I just had this feeling that sometime in the future he was GONNA break the contract, so that is why I am suing". You might say "But there is no development team so it is pretty obvious that they won't make it in time for the October 2012 date" but that is not relevant, since that course of events need to actually happen before you can make a claim based on them and then you can only make a claim upon what has been agreed to, namely the $2.5 Million + agreed upon interest (7% p.a. according to Take Two). This potential profits thing is complete nonsense from an ethical point of view.

Your personal opinion doesn't apply to Business Ethics. Sorry.

The potential profit issue is brought up because 3DR are preventing the game from meeting the 2012 deadline. If they working towards that deadline, there wouldn't be an issue. They aren't working towards the dealine, so there is an issue. Quite simple, really.

Also, there wasn't any sixth sense or soothsaying involved. Take Two didn't have a "sneaking suspicion" or "just had this feeling", there are public announcements! 3DR let Take Two know what was happening, Take Two responded.

Your comment "since that course of events need to actually happen before you can make a claim based on them" it's even better!

PS I'M GHEY GAY GHAY! HOORAH! I LOVE MEN! I LOVE EATING POO!

Yes, it's true. i had to add that.

[Kokoro]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/iscr...7-2009&FName=0

Wow. 3DR is so f···ed.

[Arexx]

3DRealms laid them off publicly, but in reality they're all still working on it under the table. (hey, I can come up with crazy theories too!)

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Kokoro

Wow. 3DR is so f···ed.

How? Did you actually READ it?

Here's the part I think will be key to Apogee's defense...

"Apogee provide Take-Two with Master PC version of DNF as soon as it is completed."

Ummm... how do they think they can get the source to an uncompleted game? There's no Master PC version because it hasn't been completed yet, so they don't have the rights under their own agreement to any source. And 3DRealms hasn't announced they have stopped development of the game. They may need funding and don't want to agree to T2's terms, which George seemed to have implied. You can't keep people working on it without funding so you lay them off until you find funding to complete it and the date of completion is probably the most well known thing in the world of gaming... WHEN IT'S DONE. It isn't done, so... no game for Take 2.

Also, the agreed upon date of completion in the second agreement was Oct 22, 2012... last time I checked, it was 2009.

I also don't see where T2 is getting all these suggested release dates from Apogee, ever since 2007, they have ALWAYS said it was WID... this has always been emphasized. They'll have a tough time proving any implied release dates over the years, it can be EASILY proven that 3DRealms never had a release date. This is very well known by everyone.

---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 PM ----------

Wow, I just read in that law suit that "Apogee publicly announced that they were shutting down their studios and terminating development of DNF." WTF?! They never announced anything of the sort. We all waited to hear anything from them about this and nothing was said, let alone a public announcement on "May 6". Sheesh.... this law suit is trash.

---------- Post added at 12:00 AM ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 11:51 PM ----------

Keep in mind, the court document you are reading is Take 2's side of the story, as told by lawyers. We have yet to read 3DRealm's/Apogee's side of the story, and there is ALWAYS two sides to any story. One should never draw conclusions based solely upon what one party states.

[Tualmasok]

How? Did you actually READ it?

Yes, but you didn't...

Here's the part I think will be key to Apogee's defense...

"Apogee provide Take-Two with Master PC version of DNF as soon as it is completed."

Once again, read. Your eyes are wonderful and you WILL learn something. The docs say that each update, or "version" of the DNF source code and objects was to be sent to Take Two. Take Two didn't receive this. BREACH!

Also, the agreed upon date of completion in the second agreement was Oct 22, 2012... last time I checked, it was 2009.

Once again with the reading. You have to do it. And not just what supports your argument. If 3DR has ceased dev of the game NOW, and has fired staff NOW, that's a pretty good indicator the game WON'T BE READY for 2012.

I also don't see where T2 is getting all these suggested release dates from Apogee, ever since 2007, they have ALWAYS said it was WID... this has always been emphasized. They'll have a tough time proving any implied release dates over the years, it can be EASILY proven that 3DRealms never had a release date. This is very well known by everyone.

Yeah, my bad on this one. I didn't realise you had access to all the legal documents and memos that fly between 3DR and TT. Obviously you have several stolen or intercepted PDF files you can share with us that clearly state the deadline presented to Take Two as "WID".

Wow, I just read in that law suit that "Apogee publicly announced that they were shutting down their studios and terminating development of DNF." WTF?! They never announced anything of the sort. We all waited to hear anything from them about this and nothing was said, let alone a public announcement on "May 6". Sheesh.... this law suit is trash.

So you never saw the main Shacknews link?!? It's what everbody read before posting here... Aw, sorry, you can't read, I forgot!

[lordlonelobo]

Well, to be fair, it was said that Oct 22, 2012 was when the full amount would become due, not necessarily when the game had to be released.

[Hirvi]

Originally Posted by Spardanian

I think that 3DR just playing a game with T2. T2 don't want to fund DNF, cause they think that it will have no succes. 3DR will not fund DNF now, cause they want T2 to sue 3DR what leads to "T2 made offensive moves against 3DR", so after all this whatevarica, 3DR will try to sue T2 for making offensive moves against it's own developer and to regain DNF publisher rights. Maybe it's not true...

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

Guys, chances are that 3DR isn't broke. Chances are more likely that they cannot afford to pay their developers for the length of time it would take to finish the game.

I think these two are very good points

[Tualmasok]

Originally Posted by Hirvi

I think these two are very good points

And I think you are one of the most intelligent people on this forum, very good points.

[Rider]

Originally Posted by Tualmasok

If 3DR has ceased dev of the game NOW, and has fired staff NOW, that's a pretty good indicator the game WON'T BE READY for 2012.

"A pretty good indicator" won't be enough basis for a lawsuit.

[WoodenSword]

Originally Posted by Rider

"A pretty good indicator" won't be enough basis for a lawsuit.

Well it should, otherwise the judge would have dismissed the sue immediately.
Also i am sure lawyers at TakeTwo (good or bad,evil or nice) know their jobs better than us...

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Rider

"A pretty good indicator" won't be enough basis for a lawsuit.

Au contraire. 3DR will be asked if they still plan to have the game finished by then. If the answer is "no", 3DR lose. If the answer is "yes", they will be asked to explain how. If the explanation isn't any good, 3DR lose.

Lawsuits aren't based on reasonable doubt.

[Kristian Joensen]

That might well be the case legally, but it shouldn't be the case legally. They entered into a contract saying in effect "If you don't release the game by October 22, 2012 you have to pay back the advance immediately" not contract saying in effect "If you don't play to release the game by October 22, 2012 you to pay back the advance immediately plus the money Take Two spent buying the publishing rights from Atari and the potential profits from the game".

[Firstperson]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

That might well be the case legally, but it shouldn't be the case legally. They entered into a contract saying in effect "If you don't release the game by October 22, 2012 you have to pay back the advance immediately" not contract saying in effect "If you don't play to release the game by October 22, 2012 you to pay back the advance immediately plus the money Take Two spent buying the publishing rights from Atari and the potential profits from the game".

If the case being that 3DRealms signed a contract saying that there WOULD be a version of DNF for the XBox 360 by 2012, that DOES throw a monkey wrench in the works for George. Regardless of a WID with the PC version, there HAS to be at least a console version by that time. Also, the tech would be dated. So, TBH, a PC version would be moot by that time.

As of the "off shore accounts" that were mentioned that 3DRealms suposedly has, it makes you wonder when these were done and for what purpose. Something to chew on.

[Rider]

Hmm, I stand corrected. Guess I don't know your odd foreign law system as well as I thought

[MotzaballZ]

Source codes can't be given because there are none. This may all just be a sham. That's how T2 probably sees it as. Look, 3DR's excuse is that they've been renewing the game to make the perfect one, but no developer will do that. The game would get the same sales if it were just above par of other games. The conspiracy? Pocketing the funds for as long he's "making" the game.

[Kristian Joensen]

"Regardless of a WID with the PC version, there HAS to be at least a console version by that time."

No, the game has to be done by then for them to avoid having to pay back the $2.5 Million immediately.

[Firstperson]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

"Regardless of a WID with the PC version, there HAS to be at least a console version by that time."

No, the game has to be done by then for them to avoid having to pay back the $2.5 Million immediately.

That's what I meant. Only what I said was that there was no such contract made for the pc version, but there was for the CONSOLE version.

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by MotzaballZ

Source codes can't be given because there are none. This may all just be a sham. That's how T2 probably sees it as. Look, 3DR's excuse is that they've been renewing the game to make the perfect one, but no developer will do that. The game would get the same sales if it were just above par of other games. The conspiracy? Pocketing the funds for as long he's "making" the game.

So... What you're suggesting is that the game didn't even exist at all... And essentially there was no development team then...

Very astute.

[Destructor]

Originally Posted by Crosma

Au contraire. 3DR will be asked if they still plan to have the game finished by then. If the answer is "no", 3DR lose. If the answer is "yes", they will be asked to explain how. If the explanation isn't any good, 3DR lose.

I wonder if outsourcing development of DNF to an external company would be acceptable. Maybe that's how 3DR plan to be innocent. But the real question would be whether the external company would start DNF from scratch or work towards finishing the current build.

[wieder]

Originally Posted by Destructor

I wonder if outsourcing development of DNF to an external company would be acceptable. Maybe that's how 3DR plan to be innocent. But the real question would be whether the external company would start DNF from scratch or work towards finishing the current build.

If that were possible they would have been able to continue to pay their own developers, unless they expect to outsource it to an absurdly cheap company which I can promise would not end well.

[Tualmasok]

Originally Posted by wieder

If that were possible they would have been able to continue to pay their own developers, unless they expect to outsource it to an absurdly cheap company which I can promise would not end well.

If management had removed digits from rectums they would have been rolling in funds, as they would be up to DNF 3 or 4 by now. The money was there, and they used it all up irresponsibly.

I don't start driving on a long trip with a group of mates, then keep extending the distance I want to go, whilst totally ignoring the fact that I require fuel to keep the vehicle going.

And then, when the vehicle craps out, I kick everyone out, tell them to walk, and sit in the car with a cranky look on my face. After ten minutes I then pull out my own personal cash reserves and fly to Vegas for an expensive poker tournament.

[wieder]

You can make whatever statements you want, Tualmasok, but don't use my efforts to present hopefully informative statements and turn them into your spewage.

Thanks.

[Destructor]

Originally Posted by wieder

If that were possible they would have been able to continue to pay their own developers, unless they expect to outsource it to an absurdly cheap company which I can promise would not end well.

How about the arrangements 3DR had with Remedy and Human Head to develop Max Payne and Prey? 3DR didn't provide them with complete funding did they?

[wieder]

Originally Posted by Destructor

How about the arrangements 3DR had with Remedy and Human Head to develop Max Payne and Prey? 3DR didn't provide them with complete funding did they?

They were critical in getting the funding and providing a financial/negotiation safety net if the publisher funding was insufficient to deliver the product at a certain standard. They were unable to drum up funding to do it themselves when they had reportedly fixed their development practices and had a team who was experienced with the technology and design... the thought of them getting someone to pay them money to hire an external team with no experience with the tech/design doesn't make any sense. If that money were out there, they would have been able to get it for themselves. Funding a new different team will cost more than funding 3DR directly would have.

An argument can be made that perhaps the funding would be available because of confidence in the new company vs lack of confidence in 3DR directly, but at that point... why would the publisher want to split the money that far vs just negotiating a deal directly with a developer they have confidence in. 3DR worked with Remedy/Human Head to approach publishers, thus the publisher was forced to work with 3DR. The situation is reversed now where it's 3DR who has the need... so the publisher doesn't have to deal with them if they don't want to (the Duke IP isn't such a draw right now such that it stands out against a plethora of other IPs or new IPs the publisher could invest in).

[MotzaballZ]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

So... What you're suggesting is that the game didn't even exist at all... And essentially there was no development team then...

Very astute.

Precisely. That's why they're saying, in a recent article I read, that they can't hand over the source codes because the game is not done. That's rediculous, just hand over what you have so far. And that's where you realize, that there's nothing done. And the franchise is being farmed, milked for the funds to convert into profits.

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by MotzaballZ

Precisely. That's why they're saying, in a recent article I read, that they can't hand over the source codes because the game is not done. That's rediculous, just hand over what you have so far. And that's where you realize, that there's nothing done. And the franchise is being farmed, milked for the funds to convert into profits.

So what was that whole leaked video of, then?

[AdrianGuenter]

The flying spaghetti monster.

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

So what was that whole leaked video of, then?

Fake videos to hold over the playerbase. 2001 version didn't have an ounce of gameplay in it yet it looked so good.

[Mroblivious1bmf]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

First of all I am strictly talking ethics here, not legal matters. Second 3DR didn't shut down, they just laid off the DNF development team.

WRONG.

it's been stated that they laid off their entire development team.

[Kristian Joensen]

They did, but they still didn't shut down.

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

Fake videos to hold over the playerbase. 2001 version didn't have an ounce of gameplay in it yet it looked so good.

Talk about a conspiracy theorist.

[Arexx]

It's true... They faked the game videos and have been stringing people along all this time with a game that doesn't exist in order to funnel funds into their secret government jobs researching alien technology captured from alien spacecraft. Area 51 is empty and all the captured tech was shipped to Texas and placed in the hands of a phoney game company as cover... the name of the company, APOGEE.... or Alien Predominance Organization of Governmental Enhanced Engineering... so... now you know.

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by Arexx

It's true... They faked the game videos and have been stringing people along all this time with a game that doesn't exist in order to funnel funds into their secret government jobs researching alien technology captured from alien spacecraft. Area 51 is empty and all the captured tech was shipped to Texas and placed in the hands of a phoney game company as cover... the name of the company, APOGEE.... or Alien Predominance Organization of Governmental Enhanced Engineering... so... now you know.

Jesus Christ. How could I not see that?! Thanks for opening my eyes!

[MotzaballZ]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

Fake videos to hold over the playerbase. 2001 version didn't have an ounce of gameplay in it yet it looked so good.

Exactly. To tell you the truth, there was this feeling, like there was no one playing even in the new gameplay footage with the Duke flipping off the sky (presumably at aliens). It looked FAKE.

[Monkey Butler]

Wow, this thread is absolute failure. You go from total misrepresentations of contract law to vaguely accurate representations of contract law to "well the law sucks then". Awesome.

Contracts need to be made bona fide - in good faith. If I contract to build you a house by the end of the year, and at the start of the year leave the country for an 18 month holiday, it's pretty obvious that I'm not going to complete the house in time and possibly that I never even intended to finish the house.
It's up to a court to decide on the balance of probabilities, which is a lower standard than the criminal standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt', whether or not 3DR have any intention of performing their end of the contract, and also whether, despite their intentions, it's actually going to happen. A 12 year dev time, lack of funding and no staff are pretty strong arguments against them.

[Arexx]

IN that case, I would say after 12 years of working on this game, that the probability of it being completed by 2012 is pretty high. Especially if they're seeking new funding or if it's a simple matter of terms 3DRealms would be more agreeable to. I guess we'll find out in time.

I'll still back 3DRealms, as I have since 2007.

[Monkey Butler]

Just because something's been in development for a long time, doesn't mean it's near completion. Especially if it's already taken several times longer to complete than comparable products.

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Arexx

I'll still back 3DRealms, as I have since 2007.

That's not very long now, is it? Maybe you're just not jaded enough. Backing a company religiously, is well... you see.