Pace

[Kalki]

I dislike how games today put you in a rush to get to the next cool thing. I'd like DNF to be the kind of game that puts the player in a single semi-large area and gets him to explore a bit on his own and interact with the characters he chooses, working the story accordingly.

Like Deus Ex with the Hell's Kitchen area with a hotel, hospital and nightclub. They reminded me a lot of Duke 3D, which brings me to another point. The different areas of a level could 1) be similarly themed (like a red-light district) with allowable variations and 2) physically interconnect (via secret passages and destructibility) the more you explore(see Duke 3d).

Back to the characters, I thought it was a waste that I couldn't get to know the HL2 characters better on my own terms. They kept rushing me on with the fugitive chase, going silent fairly quickly with no chatter whatsoever, which could have added to the story and (optional) missions. I don't want that happening in Vegas where there are so many things to interact with.

So to sum up, I appreciate that the action will be fast, hard and blurry but eventually you can break up the pace because Duke's world is someplace I want to spend a lot of time in, ok?

[hell-angel]

So in short:
You want multiple paths to the same point. iirc GB allready confirmed that will be in to a certain extent, could be wrong here though.

As for getting to know the characters, it's not an RPG, so I don't care about that.

[crunchy superman]

Exactly! Too many games want to be sold on the merits of their graphics & environment, but don't allow you to really experience them properly!

You mention DeusEx - it was wonderful for exploration. The Duclaire estate, for example, was a level solely for exploring the environment, with no action at all until the very end. I really enjoy stuff like this, it's another tool to really pull me into the atmosphere of the game.

[Kalki]

hell-angel said:
As for getting to know the characters, it's not an RPG, so I don't care about that.

I think you should get to know them enough to care about saving them or others like them. You are playing Duke's role after all.

[FireFly]

Yes, it's like saying action films are about action so there shouldn't be any characterisation.

In fact characterisation defines the action, and by the same token, action in FPS games is emphasised by the presence of non-combat segments, which provide a much needed change of pace, and prevent the player from becoming numb to the combat, meaning when that combat does come around it's so much more satisfying.

If DNF is to be an affective FPS then the action needs to be springboarded off these non combat segments, where the player can gain some understanding into the world and what's happening to it. So instead of arriving at an EDF base only after it's been compromised, you should be able to explore a little first, get to appreciate the place and the people that run and it and then be forced to defend it against the invaders.

That's the problem with games like Serious Sam - there's very little context to what you're doing; it has no meaning within the world. Being Duke should involve the opposite - seeing the effects of your actions, seeing what's at stake and how much the world needs you. You can't be an action hero if there's nothing to save!

[ZuljinRaynor]

Kalki said:

I think you should get to know them enough to care about saving them or others like them. You are playing Duke's role after all.

But in RPGs the enemies bleed numbers.

[hell-angel]

Kalki said:

I think you should get to know them enough to care about saving them or others like them. You are playing Duke's role after all.

I doub the actually cares about who he saves, as long as she is hot and he gets some booty.

[Kalki]

Haha, see this is why what Firefly said about characterisation is so important. The old farts need Duke too.

Seriously though, it would suck if interactivity is the most touted aspect of the game and we don't see anything from its NPC department. Unlike regular interactivity, NPCs provide not just immersiveness but story too.

[hell-angel]

that is of course, providing there NPC's other then the enemies and the strippers. And whe no what the stripper interaction can be like.

[FireFly]

Well you can see NPCs in the E3 video, so unless George has been listening to people on the forum too much they should still be in.

[Kristian Joensen]

Also this is 3D Realms we are talking about, Scott cares a great deal about story.

[hell-angel]

FireFly said:
Well you can see NPCs in the E3 video, so unless George has been listening to people on the forum too much they should still be in.

everything from the 2001 build is out, if anyone should know that is't you.


But we will see.

[FireFly]

Not quite. Every pixel is out, but George said that much of the old gameplay remains.

[Malgon]

I sure hope so. The e3 version of the game was supposedly empty levels and far from finished, and yet there was more gameplay and fine details than most finished games today. Hopefully they have kept all the small stuff like pinball machines, mule and motorbike riding, and stuff like seeing dukes hands operating machinery and keypads and the like. Things like this add to the feel of the game, and I hope they have tons of small stuff that just fills everything out.

[hell-angel]

FireFly said:
Not quite. Every pixel is out, but George said that much of the old gameplay remains.

I hate you you know that.

Let's hope you are right.

Malgon said:

I sure hope so. The e3 version of the game was supposedly empty levels and far from finished, and yet there was more gameplay and fine details than most finished games today. Hopefully they have kept all the small stuff like pinball machines, mule and motorbike riding, and stuff like seeing dukes hands operating machinery and keypads and the like. Things like this add to the feel of the game, and I hope they have tons of small stuff that just fills everything out.

I hope so as well.

[Kalki]

hell-angel said:

I hate you you know that.

Let's hope you are right.

And it doesn't peeve you that while graphics and tech cause restarts, gameplay isn't reworked, only adapted even when the rest of the game moves generations ahead?

[hell-angel]

Kalki said:

And it doesn't peeve you that while graphics and tech cause restarts, gameplay isn't reworked, only adapted even when the rest of the game moves generations ahead?

Not when the gameplay is great.

[EmperorZorn]

FireFly said:
Yes, it's like saying action films are about action so there shouldn't be any characterisation.

In fact characterisation defines the action, and by the same token, action in FPS games is emphasised by the presence of non-combat segments, which provide a much needed change of pace, and prevent the player from becoming numb to the combat, meaning when that combat does come around it's so much more satisfying.

If DNF is to be an affective FPS then the action needs to be springboarded off these non combat segments, where the player can gain some understanding into the world and what's happening to it. So instead of arriving at an EDF base only after it's been compromised, you should be able to explore a little first, get to appreciate the place and the people that run and it and then be forced to defend it against the invaders.

That's the problem with games like Serious Sam - there's very little context to what you're doing; it has no meaning within the world. Being Duke should involve the opposite - seeing the effects of your actions, seeing what's at stake and how much the world needs you. You can't be an action hero if there's nothing to save!

Duke's Ego has enough character for entire Las Vegas.

[Kalki]

Duke's ego needs characterisation to bounce off of.

"You think you're going to save the world all by yourself?"
"Think those sunglasses make yeh look cool, or sumpin'?"

[KaiserSoze]

good subject kalki.

i think george has said in the past that the levels will be pretty big and detailed.

i don't know about you guys, but i *do* look around at everything and take in the graphics and such when walking around a level. i simply don't "rush through" the level. i investigate everywhere i can possible go and take time to appreciate the work the level designers, artists, texture guys, modelers, etc do in the game. it takes alot of damn time and i make sure to check things out like that. kinda like waiting for all the credits to end for a movie you enjoyed(to me, it's a sign of respect).

[Echo Black]

KaiserSoze said:
good subject kalki.

i think george has said in the past that the levels will be pretty big and detailed.

i don't know about you guys, but i *do* look around at everything and take in the graphics and such when walking around a level. i simply don't "rush through" the level. i investigate everywhere i can possible go and take time to appreciate the work the level designers, artists, texture guys, modelers, etc do in the game. it takes alot of damn time and i make sure to check things out like that. kinda like waiting for all the credits to end for a movie you enjoyed(to me, it's a sign of respect).

I also do that and shoot every material, goof around with explosives, watch bullet holes, shoot a bullet at a corner to see how the bullet hole will be ( I hate it when the bullet hole folds in two, like a stamp covering each part of the polygon face), try jumping on stuff, messing with NPCs, try breaking glasses, shoot corpses multiple times or try to explode them...I'm really curious and always take my time through each part of a graphics-intensive FPS. I like admiring the map design and the work of the artists, too

[Micki!]

Echo Black said:

I also do that and shoot every material, goof around with explosives, watch bullet holes, shoot a bullet at a corner to see how the bullet hole will be ( I hate it when the bullet hole folds in two, like a stamp covering each part of the polygon face), try jumping on stuff, messing with NPCs, try breaking glasses, shoot corpses multiple times or try to explode them...I'm really curious and always take my time through each part of a graphics-intensive FPS. I like admiring the map design and the work of the artists, too

That's funny..!
Because i do the exact same thing as you guys just described..!

[hell-angel]

I always try to shoot my initials in the walls with a machine gun.

[Micki!]

hell-angel said:
I always try to shoot my initials in the walls with a machine gun.

I usually do that with my whole name..! But most of the time, the decall lifetime, or the decall limit is passed when doing that..!

For example, i tried to write my name with the quake3 lightning gun, but the 'blast marks' always disappeared when i was almost finished..!

[hell-angel]

Micki! said:

I usually do that with my whole name..! But most of the time, the decall lifetime, or the decall limit is passed when doing that..!

For example, i tried to write my name with the quake3 lightning gun, but the 'blast marks' always disappeared when i was almost finished..!

same here.

[mysteryperfecta]

I like the idea of having multiple, self-contained-yet-interdependent objectives at once, allowing the player to set their own priorities.

Imagine Las Vegas under an alien attack: there are aliens at Treasure Island, aliens at The Bellagio, aliens at The "Stratosfear", etc. Instead of being baited along a predetermined path by enemies at 10 meter intervals, you can choose which self-contained objective you want to engage in, and travel to it.

Choosing would have consequences. Choosing one objective could mean that another objective, left on its own, becomes more difficult with higher stakes. On the other hand, the viability of an objective could be based on your firepower, which means completing another objective (and gaining a new weapon) could make another objective more viable (strategy!). Moreover, with this system, you could FAIL an objective, and you'd just have to move on. Most FPS's today do not give you the freedom to fail (which deprives us of the sense of urgency that comes with the risk of failure).

This system allows the player to explore an area at his own pace, but at the same time, he wouldn't be allowed enough time to complete all objectives. Duke is needed somewhere else, and has to leave the area. Think of the replayability this adds! Things left unfinished, with consequences! Duke returns to Vegas, and with that objective to save the Bellagio missed, the Bellagio is now a pile of rubble, with many lives lost.

[hell-angel]

mysteryperfecta said:
I like the idea of having multiple, self-contained-yet-interdependent objectives at once, allowing the player to set their own priorities.

Imagine Las Vegas under an alien attack: there are aliens at Treasure Island, aliens at The Bellagio, aliens at The "Stratosfear", etc. Instead of being baited along a predetermined path by enemies at 10 meter intervals, you can choose which self-contained objective you want to engage in, and travel to it.

Choosing would have consequences. Choosing one objective could mean that another objective, left on its own, becomes more difficult with higher stakes. On the other hand, the viability of an objective could be based on your firepower, which means completing another objective (and gaining a new weapon) could make another objective more viable (strategy!). Moreover, with this system, you could FAIL an objective, and you'd just have to move on. Most FPS's today do not give you the freedom to fail (which deprives us of the sense of urgency that comes with the risk of failure).

This system allows the player to explore an area at his own pace, but at the same time, he wouldn't be allowed enough time to complete all objectives. Duke is needed somewhere else, and has to leave the area. Think of the replayability this adds! Things left unfinished, with consequences! Duke returns to Vegas, and with that objective to save the Bellagio missed, the Bellagio is now a pile of rubble, with many lives lost.

Although I like the idea of your system, Duke does NOT fail therefore does not need this system.

[Malgon]

I just hope the pacing is like a good action movie. Possibly a big explosive intro (with rolling credits), then into a calm beginning as we begin and get adjusted to the Duke. Maybe Duke wakes up, and you get to walk around your mansion exploring, and playing with all the physics and interacting with all the objects. Then a little while later Duke recieves a call from some government superiors detailing some plot they is underway with some villains.
Cliched but yet still cool. I hope you get to explore before you kick ass.

[Beelze]

mysteryperfecta said:
Moreover, with this system, you could FAIL an objective, and you'd just have to move on. Most FPS's today do not give you the freedom to fail (which deprives us of the sense of urgency that comes with the risk of failure).

It'd be important to make sure that the player does not feel that it was a failure in the traditional meaning; the player must not feel the need to reload and try again, the failure should seem natural and right.

The idea you speak of is something I've wanted to become standard in the RTS genre for a long time. It feels a bit wrong to suffer defeat in one battle and consequently lose the entire war. As the saying goes, "you may have won the battle, but not the war."

[Kalki]

mysteryperfecta said:
I like the idea of having multiple, self-contained-yet-interdependent objectives at once, allowing the player to set their own priorities.

Imagine Las Vegas under an alien attack: there are aliens at Treasure Island, aliens at The Bellagio, aliens at The "Stratosfear", etc. Instead of being baited along a predetermined path by enemies at 10 meter intervals, you can choose which self-contained objective you want to engage in, and travel to it.

In a scenario like this, travelling becomes centric to gameplay (and somehow a racing level creeps in ). Some objectives (like a hotel & casino) would nevertheless retain the ole generic corridor-shooter gameplay. Can't escape that. So rather than have the whole city available, I personally prefer the bottleneck entrance - massively explorable, interconnected area - bottleneck exit type of large level, expanding on what we saw in Duke 3D. The level could have varying objectives like you mentioned, for different areas within.

Choosing would have consequences. Choosing one objective could mean that another objective, left on its own, becomes more difficult with higher stakes. On the other hand, the viability of an objective could be based on your firepower, which means completing another objective (and gaining a new weapon) could make another objective more viable (strategy!). Moreover, with this system, you could FAIL an objective, and you'd just have to move on. Most FPS's today do not give you the freedom to fail (which deprives us of the sense of urgency that comes with the risk of failure).

I tend to balk at the idea of textual mission objectives so I can't say what you mean by "choosing". But I don't want to rely on remembered bits of dialogue in NPC interactions or map markings either so I think you should be able to come across them after some basic exploration.

I do like the concept of an organically connected mission structure that alters depending on your choice, progress and the weapons and powerups you've earned. (Btw, not every fight should be part of or peripheral to some greater objective, meaning we still want to run into the random alien patrol or firefight.)

However Failure seems superfluous because it can be corrected with a simple quickload. Even a sense of failure may cause the player to backtrack and I know what you're thinking so let's not even discuss that alternative of restricting the save system!

You can only do something like this under the guise of "variable outcome" where the player isn't made to feel guilt and is made to understand that the setback is all a part of the game narrative. Doesn't mean I didn't feel as bad for Paul Denton(DE) as I did for Hawk(SoF).

Edit: Beelze beat me to it.

This system allows the player to explore an area at his own pace, but at the same time, he wouldn't be allowed enough time to complete all objectives. Duke is needed somewhere else, and has to leave the area. Think of the replayability this adds! Things left unfinished, with consequences! Duke returns to Vegas, and with that objective to save the Bellagio missed, the Bellagio is now a pile of rubble, with many lives lost.

Again, anything left unfinished, unresolved or unexplored makes the player feel empty and leaves him thinking back to what he missed. Not a good idea imo. Kind of the antithesis to my original post of allowing the player to squeeze out all the enjoyment from a level before moving on.

[Kristian Joensen]

Malgon said:

I just hope the pacing is like a good action movie. Possibly a big explosive intro (with rolling credits), then into a calm beginning as we begin and get adjusted to the Duke. Maybe Duke wakes up, and you get to walk around your mansion exploring, and playing with all the physics and interacting with all the objects. Then a little while later Duke recieves a call from some government superiors detailing some plot they is underway with some villains.
Cliched but yet still cool. I hope you get to explore before you kick ass.

He migth receive a call, but the news and details of the alien invasion should be given to him in person, just like in the 2001 trailer.

[hell-angel]

Kristian Joensen said:

He migth receive a call, but the news and details of the alien invasion should be given to him in person, just like in the 2001 trailer.

Yeah, and you have to drive from your mansion to the generals place on your motor bike (or the deliverator of course ) and kick some alien asses along the way.

[Malgon]

Yeah that would work out nicely. Duke gets the call to get his ass down to HQ and hear whats going on from General Graves. I could see it happening like that. But I'm sure 3DR has something good in the works.

[hell-angel]

Malgon said:

Yeah that would work out nicely. Duke gets the call to get his ass down to HQ and hear whats going on from General Graves. I could see it happening like that. But I'm sure 3DR has something good in the works.

Let's hope so.

[mysteryperfecta]

Kalki said:
In a scenario like this, travelling becomes centric to gameplay (and somehow a racing level creeps in ).

The Strip and outlying areas are fairly close. I'm not talking more than a 60 second trip on Duke's motorcycle. Unless Duke has to get on the freeway, which means some awesome vehicular combat hinted at in available DNF media.

But I don't want to rely on remembered bits of dialogue in NPC interactions or map markings either so I think you should be able to come across them after some basic exploration.

I'm talking about clear objectives you are either directly given, or can clearly see. What if your "objective screen" was one of those sightseeing telescopes on the top of The Lady Killer (like the panoramic pan in the 2001 vid)? And a sightseeing map would be a naturally occuring map for navigating Vegas.

Btw, not every fight should be part of or peripheral to some greater objective, meaning we still want to run into the random alien patrol or firefight.

Absolutely. For instance, taking the freeway to an objective could result in an inpromptu vehicular firefight; a dropship could drop aliens at any point.

However Failure seems superfluous because it can be corrected with a simple quickload. Even a sense of failure may cause the player to backtrack and I know what you're thinking so let's not even discuss that alternative of restricting the save system!

Quicksaves are an impetus to pace in any situation. But I understand what you're saying. In my scenario, however, killing immersion would be the player's decision, and not a product of the game announcing "Failed to ..., press enter to continue."

You can only do something like this under the guise of "variable outcome" where the player isn't made to feel guilt and is made to understand that the setback is all a part of the game narrative.

I agree. The player should be encouraged to move on from the failure, perhaps to be redeemed in some other objective. I don't have a problem with a player feeling guilt, though.

Again, anything left unfinished, unresolved or unexplored makes the player feel empty and leaves him thinking back to what he missed. Not a good idea imo.

If what lies ahead is compelling, then I think the average gamer can move on. I think the benefit of having choice (and eventual replayability) is worth it.