Max Payne: Payne & Redemption

[Unbeholder]

Keeping the peace is one thing, especially when you are a tiny island and a f*cking planet sized monster is threatening to eat you if you don't. But the problem is that throughout this whole saga 'keeping the peace' has left me somewhat red. Red with embarassment, anger and disappointment. I have had this niggling voice in the back of my mind telling me that we're not doing the right thing. This voice has been getting louder and louder, and the response of our fans has added a chorus, and the point has come. Enough is enough.

Enough pandering and peace keeping. I'm not ******* Bono. :mad

I feel gutted for the fans, the actors and the entire production team that Fox have decided to try to shut us down. Countless people have invested their time, energy and money into making this independent fan film what it is...or could be, and Fox are acting like yappy little dogs, insecure and ego-mad. Big dogs don't need to bark and bark - they know they are the big dog. They know what is a threat and what isn't. Like George Lucas, he is a big dog, and he is not threatened by fan films. But Fox is like a little Jack Russell - guarding its bone with primal rage, without applying any thought or consideration to the issue. You see, if Fox were George Lucas, they would realise that this fan film isn't a threat to their multi million dollar marky-mark extravaganza. How bad must their film be that they would consider a 20 minute short a threat?! If anything it serves to augment the Max Payne fan base, which in turn means that more people would want to go and see the Fox film. But now, by acting the way that they have, they are alienating a set of previously shoe-in fans, who will boycott the "official" production (although I don't know how it can call itself "official" - I mean, Ludacris as Jim Bravura?! That's just, well...). And I encourage it - boycott away, slag the Fox film off, because I certainly will be. No more pandering, no more peace keeping. I wipe the brown off my nose and say **** FOX!

Yours, bringing the payne,
Luke Morgan-Rowe.
Producer.


P.S. Stick with us, we'll be coming back with something harder, better, stronger and faster - announcement to follow shortly..

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I don't know what luke is planning, its over for Payne & Redemption but he ain't giving up, stubborn...

as max payne once said.. "to stubborn to die"

but this is the end, this is max payne with 100 bullets in his chest its when the screen goes red. and you have nothing but an old save game left. You have to start from the beginning or quit, but sitting there and watching the red screen is pointless...

[Sang]

Pop-on slowmotion, do some shootdodging, and no problems anymore

[LaughingSkull]

Originally Posted by Unbeholder

I don't know what luke is planning, its over for Payne & Redemption but he ain't giving up, stubborn...

That's not stubborness, it's perseverance.

I can't imagine how one could take FOX's side on this. Whoever does is one servile little man.

Anyway, good luck to Luke in the future.

[Dunedain]

You know, we always hear it said that Fox's only concern is they need to defend their intellectual property rights or they might lose them to others, apparently because of the dumb way the laws are written. Ok, fine. If they give the Payne and Redemption team their permission, that ends any concern over property rights. Because a group which has permission to use those properties on a limited basis doesn't give hostile outsiders any grounds on which to claim the property rights in question are open to general use by anyone at any time.

Of course, none of this makes sense, anyhow. If the copyright laws are so strictly written that it essentially forces Fox to do this, or risk losing their property rights, then why doesn't Lucasfilm have to do the same thing to Star Wars fan films? There are several Star Wars fan films that are either being made or have been made, and Lucasfilm lets the fans make them. I don't see anyone screaming from the rooftops saying that Lucasfilm is about to lose their intellectual property rights to Star Wars because of these fan films.

Obviously George Lucas wouldn't let these fan films go forward if it was going to threaten his ownership and control of the Star Wars intellectual property rights. So clearly this argument *can't* be true. If it's true for Fox, it would also have to be true for Lucasfilm and their property rights, namely, Star Wars. And it clearly isn't true for Lucasfilm. So it can't be true for Fox, either.

So the question becomes, why is Fox *really* doing this? Obviously they've been aware of the Payne and Redemption fan film for a long time, they know it's being well done and a lot of time and effort has been put into it. It's not like the Payne and Redemption team is putting out a piece of garbage here, they've worked really hard on this. So why at the last minute all of a sudden tell them they can't release this fan film project?? That not only makes no sense, it's very unfair. Why didn't they just say 2 years ago they were going to be this way about it? Instead they led the team on and let them think everything was cool and then just when they are close to finally finishing the fan film, they jump in and say we don't want you to release it. What kind of way to act is that?

[Unbeholder]

Because they never sought permission from the max payne license holders (fox). They where probably checking up on payne and redemption and finally decided to take it down. Big name companies take a while to act. its got something to do with time it takes for it to go through the stages to protect its intellectual rights (checking if these people have gotten that permission), then time it takes to decide what it the best solution, then weigh up what should be done.

Lucas film are loosing their intellectual property, theres thousands of starwars based short films out there and all sorts of fan art and manyt things. Lucasfilms allow this because its all about the fans. Fox is all about the money, they care more about making money. Letting their ideas be stolen by the public is like letting loose the lions on the gazelle. Suddenly fox starts loosing money off a fan film thats getting more attention... thats when the alarm bells go off.

[Dunedain]

If I recall correctly, I think someone from the Payne and Redemption team said they had had contact with Fox long before this, so they have talked with them.

As far as money goes, when it comes to Max Payne, it also is all about the fans. The only people who have any significant interest in this upcoming Max Payne movie from Fox are Max Payne fans. So it's very unwise to aggravate those fans, the very same Max Payne fans that Fox is then going to try to convince to go see the Max Payne movie they are releasing. All this is doing is creating very bad publicity for Fox and this movie they are making, which will cost them a lot of money. None of this makes sense. A fan project like this draws attention to Max Payne, which is good for Fox.

All Fox has to do is say that they are giving the Payne and Redemption team their official permission to release the movie, thus keeping the property rights protected and allowing the movie to released. There's no excuse for Fox not doing this for such a worthy project, and it would certainly create a great deal of good will among the many Max Payne fans if Fox was reasonable about this.

And George Lucas isn't losing his rights to Star Wars at all. Any time he wishes he can shut down a Star Wars fan film project, and it would be stopped immediately by his lawyers. I've seen this happen with a Star Wars mod for the game Neverwinter Nights, for example. But George is a lot wiser than Fox, he knows the fans are really into Star Wars just like he is, and fan film projects are a way of expressing that enthusiasm, a tribute to Star Wars. Which, in the end, is good for the fans and Lucasfilm. Everyone wins.

[aavenr]

You can argue over the validity and business sense (or lack thereof) of extending permission to this team to produce and release the film. But at the end of the day it's the copyright holder's prerogative what to do with their IP.

This is common knowledge in creative circles. You can't act all indignant when things don't go your way after bad decisions for which you only have yourself to blame. I understand the producers being extremely upset at the prospect of losing all their hard earned work--and those of countless others that collaborated--but they foolishly set themselves on a course fraught with legal complications.

I admire the courage, the dedication, the passion and the persistence of Fergle and Luke and everybody involved. But I don't admire their lack of judgment.

On a more personal note, I feel the way you pay tribute and honor great creative works is by distilling their essence and letting them influence your own original material. Trying to contribute directly to someone else's IP--especially given the legal boundaries of which everybody is aware of--is just creatively lazy.

Best of luck to these talented guys on any future endeavors. I am sure they learned a few lessons from all this--the hard way.

[Dunedain]

aavenr: The point is that people drone on endlessly about how Fox has to do this, whether Fox wants to or not, or they might lose their intellectual property rights to Max Payne. But as the Star Wars and Lucasfilm example shown above proves, this is simply factually untrue, it is *not* something that Fox has to do to protect the Max Payne intellectual property rights at all.

So, now that this phony excuse has been exposed as completely untrue, the question is why are they really doing this to the Payne and Redemption team and to the Max Payne fans, many of whom want to see this fan film?

And the further point is that even if, for whatever stupid reason, Fox wants to do this, then why didn't they tell the Payne and Redemption team this a long time ago, before they wasted huge amounts of effort trying to finish the movie? Fox knew about the movie for a long time, and apparently the movie team talked to Fox about it previously, and yet Fox let the team think everything was ok. Then at the last minute they pull this? Why?

That's the point, they're being jerks about it, and it's totally unnecessary. Are they trying to make the Max Payne fans despise them? Are they trying to lose ticket sales for their Max Payne movie, whose biggest and most likely potential audience is made up of Max Payne fans? Talk about dumb. How did these guys get their jobs? They obviously don't know anything about maintaining good fan relations and getting good free publicity for their movies.

[ADM]

Dunedain: They DO have to do this, they could give them permission and allow them to do it but then their name is tied to it and as a big business who controls all marketing very carefully it's generally not wise to throw your name on things without controlling it. Why would they then spend all that time on something they won't get any money off?

You can bitch and think it's unnecessary but then if they didn't control it and things spun way out of control in a negative sense for the PR of Payne and Redemption then Fox have to do things to clean it up on their end because their name is attached. Thus they have to spend more time and money on something that isn't theirs.

[Unbeholder]

Originally Posted by Dunedain

As far as money goes, when it comes to Max Payne, it also is all about the fans. The only people who have any significant interest in this upcoming Max Payne movie from Fox are Max Payne fans. So it's very unwise to aggravate those fans, the very same Max Payne fans that Fox is then going to try to convince to go see the Max Payne movie they are releasing. All this is doing is creating very bad publicity for Fox and this movie they are making, which will cost them a lot of money.

there is no publicity.. its all done under cover.

but of course word does get around, not far... but around probably P&R had something to do with it.

and trust me, the max payne fans will see the movie regardless. Like me

[LaughingSkull]

Everyone seems so glad that FOX win this.

What I am glad about is that I live in a country where the so-called "intellectual property" still hasn't enslaved the culture and gripped the creativity of the average man in its clutches; Where any normal person who would see this thread would automatically take Luke's side.

[Unbeholder]

to you /\ and Dunedain

http://www.alanwake.com/forum/showth...p?t=644&page=2

Originally Posted by Maddieman

If you use someone's trademark without permission, they'll argue that you're passing off as them (pretending to be the official product when you're not). Furthermore, they'll claim that they're losing profits from it, especially if an official Max Payne film did go into production (because even though your film is non-profit, it's still competition).

Originally Posted by Ancient

They already got Max Payne story (a well advertised trademark) for free and they still dare to ask for money from the fan base?

So i think the thing that really put the final nail in the coffin is when they asked the fans for money.. Fox is serous about when it comes to this, asking for money from the fans that should be going to Fox is a no-no. I see why they did it now, its not to protect their property its to protect their money....

[Luke Morgan-Rowe]

Just thought I'd let everyone know that we're BACK, and here to stay.

You can read Fergle's "A new beginning" post here.

Expect lots of new updates in the coming months.

"We won't stop".

Luke.

[Unbeholder]

there are still references to max payne on the website.

"Payne & Redemption seems very ambitious and impressive. Good luck with your project! Looking forward to seeing it." - Sam Lake, creator of Max Payne & writer of the Max Payne videogames."

this is on the front of the blog, is that really appropriate, seeing as max payne doesn't have anything to do with your film anymore?

Im just asking to see if its going to be taken down.

and how exactley do you have the money to re-shoot the film and re-write the script... and it took so long and in the end never release a 20 minute film, what makes you think its gonna be made faster this time? thats another 3 years... are you insane..

unless the film was never shot in the first place.. except for the footage in the trailers.

What ever happens now, the official Max Payne film has oready been shot, and its going to be released soon after all the editing and CGI and so on gets done. So all the fans can be looking forward to that

[Mariamus]

Since this is no longer a Max Payne movie, i'm locking the thread. If you want, you can make a new thread in the popular media forum.