Why bother with Build? - Page 2

Mblackwell · 06-20-2001, 04:27 PM

oh, and knowing all the godd**n math in the world won't help you put trig in Duke unless you know how to PROGRAM it in there. You could be the world's best artist, but know squat about DukeC.

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Mblackwell ]

Phoenix · 06-20-2001, 05:50 PM

Mapster is an excellent program.
As for Beta Testing (I ain’t no tester), I got lucky and got me the latest "beta" version. It rocks. Thanks TerminX.

Also as the everlasting newbie around here I can afford to ask dumb questions; Nutwrench what programs did you make for the Duke community? And where can they be downloaded? [img]smilies/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] Can't find noddin...

Jim · 06-21-2001, 01:46 AM

I tried this Mapster program some time ago. It seemed to work but I had horrible colors in 2D mode (red and blue if I remember: extremely tiring!). I tried a new version lately and this time I had tons of 'Granular limit' messages on screen, while Build works like a charm... Is it due to a lame test version?

Mblackwell · 06-21-2001, 10:01 AM

It's probably not installed correctly... either way, try the newest version. Also, the color can be changed through mapter's "lookup.dat" file I believe....

cyborg · 06-21-2001, 10:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by NutWrench:
You certainly are full of rage and despair today, Cyborg.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And evidentally from the rest of the post you are lacking in coherent thought.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Exactly why ARE you here anyway? And I don't just mean here on this UBB, I mean why are you here on this planet? Is what you do with your life what your parents had in mind when they brought you into the world, and raised you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you mean annoying you then yes, yes, yes. Last time you posted here you had the gall to call me a troll for being right - and now you're being a troll because you know I'm right and don't have anything to actually say in reply.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
You're not even a proper loony - you're just another pathetic maladjusted nerd who resents the better looking, smarter, more muscular, better hung alpha males of your own species, and the women who mate with them. This isn't the place to whine about how jealous you are. It's also not the place to beg for people to consider you a genius. Yer not a damn genius, you're a horrific social and psycho-emotive stall-out case with delusions of adequacy. You wasted all the time you should have spent learning to be a real person on your one narrow area, and because you've cloistered yourself among incompetent blithering morons, you're able to avoid the glaring truth about yourself.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A bit rich coming from you Nutwrench. If I'm a loony then who's posting this crap?

It's quite simple - you're wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Got news for ya, little fish... several people here are renowned in MULTIPLE fields of arts and sciences. Y'know, REAL geniuses. Others know EVERYTHING there is to know about their particular area of expertise./<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You aren't one of them Nutwrench so don't lecture me. It's not my problem if you can't accept I do know my sciences.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Not that any of that really matters... what matters is they're here to actually HELP people. You, on the other hand are not, and your pathetic attempts to make yourself feel important and/or interesting at their expense aren't even fooling YOU.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I simply have the ability to recognise some people are truely dense. I've helped plenty of people who are worthwhile helping - I can be as nice or as nasty to whomever I choose and I don't give a rat's ass if that annoys you.
You do realise the irony here that if I am here as you say to simply make myself feel important than your continuing replies are only affirming this?
If you actually stuck to any of your convictions you wouldn't make posts like this. Hypocrite.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
--Nut
P.S. Cyborg, if you are reading this as we both know you are powerless to resist doing, these are your instructions: You are order to JUMP. Only harder and higher next time. Meat Puppet.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I fully expect another very pathetic moral post from you.
The simply facts remain that I'm right you're wrong. I was right in the Build engine post when you described it as a loaf and laughed at it being portal based - despite this being the reality. I'm right now about the status of Mapster and there's really no point arguing about it because it's not a subjective topic.

Well at least MBlackwell understands the simple concepts I've laid out here even if you can't.

Usurper · 06-21-2001, 02:29 PM

If it's giving you a granular limit error instead of starting, then you should extract the included dat files into the folder.

Last I heard, TerminX was updating it. I don't know how public the info is, so I'll let him give details if I ever see him on AIM.

Jim · 06-22-2001, 05:27 AM

Thanks Usurper.
I remember I removed palete.dat because it generates weird colours in the '3DRealms' logo when I launch Duke3d (1.5).

Although I got Mapster to work again, but I found tons of weird things!
Above all, I miss A LOT of Build(1.4) function keys! 2D and 3D modes.
I still don't get that colour choice (TIRING red and blue lines together in 2D mode), nor all those annoying tails around sprites. Most of the time, you don't know where they come from and have a real web on screen when using lots of sprites in a tight space (I really was unable to work on sprites!)
Another huge bug is that it seems to change the start point each time you edit the map! WTF??
I also didn't like all those DOZENS backup files it generated on my disk!!!

Since I haven't found any advantage (well except the grid resolution), I won't want to use it anyway...
(hmm... sorry for my negative test!)

Jim · 06-22-2001, 02:10 PM

Lookup.dat is a binary file. I don't know how I could change it!

And sorry, here are some keys missing in Mapster
(at least those I noticed, I'm sure there are more!):
3D mode:
- 0 & 1 (num pad): lateral moves
- '+W: sprite display mode (no actor/no effector, etc)
- '+D: skill level display mode
- F6: Map name and next tag

2D mode:
- F5: map infos (detail of all inventory/weapons used in map)
- F6 (if no highlighted sprite): map infos (detail of all actors used in map)
- F6 (if highlighted sprite): Sector effector help page
- F7 (if cursor in a valid space): sector tags help page
- F8 / F9: search option (sprite / sector)
'+3: sprite label display mode
- Tab: sector infos
- Alt Tab: sprite infos
- 0 & 1 (num pad): lateral moves

Sorry, I need all that!

I also noticed actors always face you in Mapster, while they are displayed in their right orientation in Build (VERY annoying!)

At last try this: run Mapster, load a map, change your position with the mouse right button, switch to 3D mode. then back to 2D mode. The start position has been changed!

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Jim ]

Usurper · 06-22-2001, 02:39 PM

Build had a similar bug. I remember saving in 3d mode and having my start position set to the save point.

Anyway, keep in mind that all the mapster menus and shortcut keys had to be added in from scratch. And he only knows what bugs are in it if people report them. I think the sprite tale variants were something I requested. It's nice to be able to tell in a roomful of sprites which are your actors and which are your sprite floors. But if you ask nice, who knows, he might make it optional. If you need a feature really bad, you should request it from TerminX himself. Improvements can't be made if he doesn't know what people want or what problems they're having.

Lookup.dat is a core duke file for alternate palettes, and I don't see any file that could have the settings for mapster in it (the other .dat files are also core duke files).

06-22-2001, 03:03 PM

Am I the only person in this world who likes the actual mapster color scheme?
Jesus Christ.....

Mblackwell · 06-22-2001, 03:46 PM

I have no idea how it would either, I'm just going off of what TerminX told me (I asked him once). To look at it, you probably need a HEX editor.

I got used to the default color scheme pretty fast anyways. Also, that start thing was/is also a bug in build. the way to alleviate that is to cycle 2d and 3d mode once before you do anything. That seems to work.

-Mblackwell

Jim · 06-22-2001, 04:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mblackwell:
Also, that start thing was/is also a bug in build.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I launched Build THOUSANDS times, it absolutely NEVER happened to me.
I launched Mapster around 10 times, it happened around 10 times.

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Jim ]

Mblackwell · 06-22-2001, 11:24 PM

OMG! Are you even USING the latest version.... I don't have those bugs AT ALL, and the controls are all there. Also, as I said before (please read people) you can change the colors... I think the file is "lookup.dat" or something like that.

cyborg · 06-23-2001, 05:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jim:
I still don't get that colour choice (TIRING red and blue lines together in 2D mode)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Live with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
nor all those annoying tails around sprites.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They indicate current alignment mode.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Most of the time, you don't know where they come from and have a real web on screen when using lots of sprites in a tight space (I really was unable to work on sprites!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, use 3D mode? If you have that many sprites you can't possibly effectively manage them in 2D mode anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Another huge bug is that it seems to change the start point each time you edit the map! [quote]

Build does this for newboard maps. As is starts in 3D mode if you move then it will make the starting position where ever you stop.

[quote]
I also didn't like all those DOZENS backup files it generated on my disk!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you'd be the only person on this earth yet to understand the function of 'undo'? Or do you enjoy it when Build crashes and looses your work?
I know I sure as hell didn't which is why I wanted this feature.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Since I haven't found any advantage (well except the grid resolution), I won't want to use it anyway...
(hmm... sorry for my negative test!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well don't then. Christ - no one has a gun to your head.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>- '+W: sprite display mode (no actor/no effector, etc)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are Duke specific classes for actors remember?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
- '+D: skill level display mode<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again that is Duke specific.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
- F6: Map name and next tag<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am pretty sure this is a different key.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>- F5: map infos (detail of all inventory/weapons used in map)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again that is game specific.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>F6 (if no highlighted sprite): map infos (detail of all actors used in map)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>- F6 (if highlighted sprite): Sector effector help page
- F7 (if cursor in a valid space): sector tags help page
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ugh.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>F8 / F9: search option (sprite / sector)
'+3: sprite label display mode
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again I'm pretty certain this is a different key.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Tab: sector infos
- Alt Tab: sprite infos
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know these are different keys and if you read documentation you'd know this too.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I also noticed actors always face you in Mapster, while they are displayed in their right orientation in Build (VERY annoying!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ugh. No.

Certain actors are given their action animations in Build. This is again Duke specific.

You clearly don't get that this is not supposed to be Build. If it were just a carbon copy there'd be no reason to use it.
Now go and actually read what the site says and you might actually find out how to use it.

Bruce Hamilton · 06-23-2001, 06:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So you'd be the only person on this earth yet to understand the function of 'undo'? Or do you enjoy it when Build crashes and looses your work?
I know I sure as hell didn't which is why I wanted this feature.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that an autosave feature is a nice addon that build should've had, but even undo only brings you back one step. Saving to a brand new file every time is overkill.

Jim · 06-23-2001, 07:49 AM

You're pathetic Cyborg! Still trying to proof you can't be wrong, and others are just idiot! Damn, you found a reason for each missing function and bug!!!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>They indicate current alignment mode.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you really think I didn't understand?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So you'd be the only person on this earth yet to understand the function of 'undo'? Or do you enjoy it when Build crashes and looses your work? I know I sure as hell didn't which is why I wanted this feature.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never lose anything in Build. As soon as I have built something I want to save, I hit ESC-S, it's quite easy to do, you'd better try...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well don't then. Christ - no one has a gun to your head.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't worry I don't! (please, don't shoot...)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Those are Duke specific classes for actors remember?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Again that is Duke specific.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Again that is game specific.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Again...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you think they're useless then?
Sorry, I won't use those functions anymore...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>- F6: Map name and next tag

I am pretty sure this is a different key.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's F6.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>- F6 (if highlighted sprite): Sector effector help page
- F7 (if cursor in a valid space): sector tags help page

Ugh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Very handy! Couldn't live without them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>F8 / F9: search option (sprite / sector)
'+3: sprite label display mode

Again I'm pretty certain this is a different key.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You'd better believe me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I also noticed actors always face you in Mapster, while they are displayed in their right orientation in Build (VERY annoying!)

Ugh. No.

Certain actors are given their action animations in Build. This is again Duke specific.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Surely pointless then... Poor Ken Silverman! Why did he implement that?!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You clearly don't get that this is not supposed to be Build. If it were just a carbon copy there'd be no reason to use it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You clearly don't get that I have no reason to replace Build to half-a-Build!
(I've read here and there it was a good Build replacement...)

Mblackwell · 06-23-2001, 08:42 AM

Those game specific functions don't mean sh** when building levels for a TC. I've never had problems with the tail thing, and YES it IS a bug in build that your starting position is sometimes changed. You obviously don't build as complex of maps as I do, because it gets to be a problem after awhile.

Oh, and about the crashing... so your saying you've never gone to look at something in 2D or 3D mode that you just spent a long time doing, maybe even hours (*cough* curved surfaces *cough*) and then had build suddelny crash one you? Well gee, you must be wonder boy with the special BUILD powers..... oooooooooooo look him go! [img]smilies/dopefish.gif[/img]

Anyways, all those backup maps allow you to go to previous versions of a map if there's errors.... and you know.... there's this little thing you can do called "select the files and press SHIFT-DELETE" which will wipe them from your computer. Since you are obviously new to this concept I'll explain it:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Click on a file
<LI>Hold CTRL
<LI>Click on any other items you wish to select (keep holding CTRL)
<LI>Let go of CTRL and Press SHIFT
<LI>While still holding SHIFT press DELETE
<LI>When the message box pops up, click OK
<LI>LOOK! YOU'VE JUST DELETED SOME FILES![/list]
I hope this explaination has helped you in your further use of an "Operating System".

Mblackwell · 06-23-2001, 08:45 AM

Oh, and ken didn't implement those features in build.... 3DRealms did. Ken merely helped with the engine, and gave them code. Look at his website before you speak of him again.

Phoenix · 06-23-2001, 09:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jim:
You're pathetic Cyborg! Still trying to proof you can't be wrong, and others are just idiot!
You clearly don't get that I have no reason to replace Build to half-a-Build!
(I've read here and there it was a good Build replacement...)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Any one can call me newbie, geek, nerd or Superdork, never ever ever idiot!
Ken Silverman programmed Build specifically for the original Duke mapping and game design staff. TerminX is programming Mapster for today’s mappers and TC makers, and their needs. This is the biggest plus. Therefore only short sighted and small-minded people would overlook that fact and continue arguing in favor of a static program.
Yet, you may stay with Build, there is no law saying you must go and meet the future.

Jim · 06-23-2001, 01:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>YES it IS a bug in build that your starting position is sometimes changed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe it's been fixed in the Atomic version then. I never ever seen that!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh, and about the crashing... so your saying you've never gone to look at something in 2D or 3D mode that you just spent a long time doing, maybe even hours (*cough* curved surfaces *cough*) and then had build suddelny crash one you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok. I know curved surfaces may crash Build sometimes. I always save the board before I start some. But I know it may happen at any time anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Since you are obviously new to this concept I'll explain it:

I hope this explaination has helped you in your further use of an "Operating System".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now let me teach you some smarter things:
del AUTO*.map (or erase AUTO*.map)
or if Dos is too weird for you, then in Windows, use Shift instead of Ctrl when multiselecting sorted filenames. It's way faster!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh, and ken didn't implement those features in build.... 3DRealms did.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, 3DRealms were wrong then. They added features they didn't need. Obviously.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>TerminX is programming Mapster for today’s mappers and TC makers, and their needs. This is the biggest plus.
Therefore only short sighted and small-minded people would overlook that fact and continue arguing in favor of a static program.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree it's commendable! I'd love to find an enhanced Build.

06-23-2001, 05:38 PM

Part of the fun of BUILD is using what limited resources you have to make something spectacular. At least that's my impression - I haven't made that many build maps.

All I know is con hacking.

06-23-2001, 08:11 PM

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most"

Usurper · 06-24-2001, 12:28 PM

I swore I replied to this earlier, but apparently the message didn't get processed. Essentially, if you have problems with Mapster, bugs or otherwise, you should be asking TerminX nicely to fix them. His email is on the mapster page at rtcm.

You know, you can print out an SE cheat sheet...or scribble one down in about 5 minutes.

06-22-2001, 03:03 PM	#50
Diaz Guest	Re: Why bother with Build? Am I the only person in this world who likes the actual mapster color scheme? Jesus Christ.....

06-23-2001, 05:38 PM	#61
Guest Guest	Re: Why bother with Build? Part of the fun of BUILD is using what limited resources you have to make something spectacular. At least that's my impression - I haven't made that many build maps. All I know is con hacking.

06-23-2001, 08:11 PM	#62
Guest Guest	Re: Why bother with Build? "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most"

06-20-2001, 04:27 PM	#41
Mblackwell	Re: Why bother with Build? oh, and knowing all the godd**n math in the world won't help you put trig in Duke unless you know how to PROGRAM it in there. You could be the world's best artist, but know squat about DukeC. [ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Mblackwell ] __________________ I don't wanna be like other people are Don't wanna own a key, don't wanna wash my car Don't wanna have to work like other people do I want it to be free, I want it to be true Eduke32.com : The Rejected Applications : The Meadhall of the Comitatus

06-20-2001, 05:50 PM	#42
Phoenix	Re: Why bother with Build? Mapster is an excellent program. As for Beta Testing (I ain’t no tester), I got lucky and got me the latest "beta" version. It rocks. Thanks TerminX. Also as the everlasting newbie around here I can afford to ask dumb questions; Nutwrench what programs did you make for the Duke community? And where can they be downloaded? [img]smilies/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] Can't find noddin... __________________ SST Files

06-21-2001, 01:46 AM	#43
Jim	Re: Why bother with Build? I tried this Mapster program some time ago. It seemed to work but I had horrible colors in 2D mode (red and blue if I remember: extremely tiring!). I tried a new version lately and this time I had tons of 'Granular limit' messages on screen, while Build works like a charm... Is it due to a lame test version?

06-21-2001, 10:01 AM	#44
Mblackwell	Re: Why bother with Build? It's probably not installed correctly... either way, try the newest version. Also, the color can be changed through mapter's "lookup.dat" file I believe.... __________________ I don't wanna be like other people are Don't wanna own a key, don't wanna wash my car Don't wanna have to work like other people do I want it to be free, I want it to be true Eduke32.com : The Rejected Applications : The Meadhall of the Comitatus

06-21-2001, 10:47 AM	#45
cyborg	Re: Why bother with Build? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NutWrench: You certainly are full of rage and despair today, Cyborg.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And evidentally from the rest of the post you are lacking in coherent thought. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Exactly why ARE you here anyway? And I don't just mean here on this UBB, I mean why are you here on this planet? Is what you do with your life what your parents had in mind when they brought you into the world, and raised you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you mean annoying you then yes, yes, yes. Last time you posted here you had the gall to call me a troll for being right - and now you're being a troll because you know I'm right and don't have anything to actually say in reply. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> You're not even a proper loony - you're just another pathetic maladjusted nerd who resents the better looking, smarter, more muscular, better hung alpha males of your own species, and the women who mate with them. This isn't the place to whine about how jealous you are. It's also not the place to beg for people to consider you a genius. Yer not a damn genius, you're a horrific social and psycho-emotive stall-out case with delusions of adequacy. You wasted all the time you should have spent learning to be a real person on your one narrow area, and because you've cloistered yourself among incompetent blithering morons, you're able to avoid the glaring truth about yourself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A bit rich coming from you Nutwrench. If I'm a loony then who's posting this crap? It's quite simple - you're wrong. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Got news for ya, little fish... several people here are renowned in MULTIPLE fields of arts and sciences. Y'know, REAL geniuses. Others know EVERYTHING there is to know about their particular area of expertise./<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You aren't one of them Nutwrench so don't lecture me. It's not my problem if you can't accept I do know my sciences. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Not that any of that really matters... what matters is they're here to actually HELP people. You, on the other hand are not, and your pathetic attempts to make yourself feel important and/or interesting at their expense aren't even fooling YOU. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I simply have the ability to recognise some people are truely dense. I've helped plenty of people who are worthwhile helping - I can be as nice or as nasty to whomever I choose and I don't give a rat's ass if that annoys you. You do realise the irony here that if I am here as you say to simply make myself feel important than your continuing replies are only affirming this? If you actually stuck to any of your convictions you wouldn't make posts like this. Hypocrite. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> --Nut P.S. Cyborg, if you are reading this as we both know you are powerless to resist doing, these are your instructions: You are order to JUMP. Only harder and higher next time. Meat Puppet.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And I fully expect another very pathetic moral post from you. The simply facts remain that I'm right you're wrong. I was right in the Build engine post when you described it as a loaf and laughed at it being portal based - despite this being the reality. I'm right now about the status of Mapster and there's really no point arguing about it because it's not a subjective topic. Well at least MBlackwell understands the simple concepts I've laid out here even if you can't. __________________ You lose.

06-21-2001, 02:29 PM	#46
Usurper	Re: Why bother with Build? If it's giving you a granular limit error instead of starting, then you should extract the included dat files into the folder. Last I heard, TerminX was updating it. I don't know how public the info is, so I'll let him give details if I ever see him on AIM. __________________ Meadhall of the Comitatus \| RTCM

06-22-2001, 05:27 AM	#47
Jim	Re: Why bother with Build? Thanks Usurper. I remember I removed palete.dat because it generates weird colours in the '3DRealms' logo when I launch Duke3d (1.5). Although I got Mapster to work again, but I found tons of weird things! Above all, I miss A LOT of Build(1.4) function keys! 2D and 3D modes. I still don't get that colour choice (TIRING red and blue lines together in 2D mode), nor all those annoying tails around sprites. Most of the time, you don't know where they come from and have a real web on screen when using lots of sprites in a tight space (I really was unable to work on sprites!) Another huge bug is that it seems to change the start point each time you edit the map! WTF?? I also didn't like all those DOZENS backup files it generated on my disk!!! Since I haven't found any advantage (well except the grid resolution), I won't want to use it anyway... (hmm... sorry for my negative test!)

06-22-2001, 02:10 PM	#48
Jim	Re: Why bother with Build? Lookup.dat is a binary file. I don't know how I could change it! And sorry, here are some keys missing in Mapster (at least those I noticed, I'm sure there are more!): 3D mode: - 0 & 1 (num pad): lateral moves - '+W: sprite display mode (no actor/no effector, etc) - '+D: skill level display mode - F6: Map name and next tag 2D mode: - F5: map infos (detail of all inventory/weapons used in map) - F6 (if no highlighted sprite): map infos (detail of all actors used in map) - F6 (if highlighted sprite): Sector effector help page - F7 (if cursor in a valid space): sector tags help page - F8 / F9: search option (sprite / sector) '+3: sprite label display mode - Tab: sector infos - Alt Tab: sprite infos - 0 & 1 (num pad): lateral moves Sorry, I need all that! I also noticed actors always face you in Mapster, while they are displayed in their right orientation in Build (VERY annoying!) At last try this: run Mapster, load a map, change your position with the mouse right button, switch to 3D mode. then back to 2D mode. The start position has been changed! [ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Jim ]

06-22-2001, 02:39 PM	#49
Usurper	Re: Why bother with Build? Build had a similar bug. I remember saving in 3d mode and having my start position set to the save point. Anyway, keep in mind that all the mapster menus and shortcut keys had to be added in from scratch. And he only knows what bugs are in it if people report them. I think the sprite tale variants were something I requested. It's nice to be able to tell in a roomful of sprites which are your actors and which are your sprite floors. But if you ask nice, who knows, he might make it optional. If you need a feature really bad, you should request it from TerminX himself. Improvements can't be made if he doesn't know what people want or what problems they're having. Lookup.dat is a core duke file for alternate palettes, and I don't see any file that could have the settings for mapster in it (the other .dat files are also core duke files). __________________ Meadhall of the Comitatus \| RTCM

06-22-2001, 03:46 PM	#51
Mblackwell	Re: Why bother with Build? I have no idea how it would either, I'm just going off of what TerminX told me (I asked him once). To look at it, you probably need a HEX editor. I got used to the default color scheme pretty fast anyways. Also, that start thing was/is also a bug in build. the way to alleviate that is to cycle 2d and 3d mode once before you do anything. That seems to work. -Mblackwell __________________ I don't wanna be like other people are Don't wanna own a key, don't wanna wash my car Don't wanna have to work like other people do I want it to be free, I want it to be true Eduke32.com : The Rejected Applications : The Meadhall of the Comitatus

06-22-2001, 04:38 PM	#52
Jim	Re: Why bother with Build? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mblackwell: Also, that start thing was/is also a bug in build. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I launched Build THOUSANDS times, it absolutely NEVER happened to me. I launched Mapster around 10 times, it happened around 10 times. [ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Jim ]

06-22-2001, 11:24 PM	#53
Mblackwell	Re: Why bother with Build? OMG! Are you even USING the latest version.... I don't have those bugs AT ALL, and the controls are all there. Also, as I said before (please read people) you can change the colors... I think the file is "lookup.dat" or something like that. __________________ I don't wanna be like other people are Don't wanna own a key, don't wanna wash my car Don't wanna have to work like other people do I want it to be free, I want it to be true Eduke32.com : The Rejected Applications : The Meadhall of the Comitatus

06-23-2001, 05:26 AM	#54
cyborg	Re: Why bother with Build? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim: I still don't get that colour choice (TIRING red and blue lines together in 2D mode)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Live with it. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> nor all those annoying tails around sprites.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They indicate current alignment mode. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Most of the time, you don't know where they come from and have a real web on screen when using lots of sprites in a tight space (I really was unable to work on sprites!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Erm, use 3D mode? If you have that many sprites you can't possibly effectively manage them in 2D mode anyway. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Another huge bug is that it seems to change the start point each time you edit the map! [quote] Build does this for newboard maps. As is starts in 3D mode if you move then it will make the starting position where ever you stop. [quote] I also didn't like all those DOZENS backup files it generated on my disk!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So you'd be the only person on this earth yet to understand the function of 'undo'? Or do you enjoy it when Build crashes and looses your work? I know I sure as hell didn't which is why I wanted this feature. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Since I haven't found any advantage (well except the grid resolution), I won't want to use it anyway... (hmm... sorry for my negative test!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well don't then. Christ - no one has a gun to your head. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- '+W: sprite display mode (no actor/no effector, etc)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Those are Duke specific classes for actors remember? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> - '+D: skill level display mode<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again that is Duke specific. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> - F6: Map name and next tag<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am pretty sure this is a different key. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- F5: map infos (detail of all inventory/weapons used in map)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again that is game specific. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>F6 (if no highlighted sprite): map infos (detail of all actors used in map)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- F6 (if highlighted sprite): Sector effector help page - F7 (if cursor in a valid space): sector tags help page <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ugh. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>F8 / F9: search option (sprite / sector) '+3: sprite label display mode <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again I'm pretty certain this is a different key. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Tab: sector infos - Alt Tab: sprite infos <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I know these are different keys and if you read documentation you'd know this too. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I also noticed actors always face you in Mapster, while they are displayed in their right orientation in Build (VERY annoying!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ugh. No. Certain actors are given their action animations in Build. This is again Duke specific. You clearly don't get that this is not supposed to be Build. If it were just a carbon copy there'd be no reason to use it. Now go and actually read what the site says and you might actually find out how to use it. __________________ You lose.

06-23-2001, 06:36 AM	#55
Bruce Hamilton	Re: Why bother with Build? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So you'd be the only person on this earth yet to understand the function of 'undo'? Or do you enjoy it when Build crashes and looses your work? I know I sure as hell didn't which is why I wanted this feature.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree that an autosave feature is a nice addon that build should've had, but even undo only brings you back one step. Saving to a brand new file every time is overkill. __________________ How do you expect anyone to remember your name, if you can't spell it right yourself, Broussard? It's basic positioning... None of that matters... It'll be done when it's done.... It's the spirit of the law, not the letter.

06-23-2001, 07:49 AM	#56
Jim	Re: Why bother with Build? You're pathetic Cyborg! Still trying to proof you can't be wrong, and others are just idiot! Damn, you found a reason for each missing function and bug!!!!!!!! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>They indicate current alignment mode.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Do you really think I didn't understand? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So you'd be the only person on this earth yet to understand the function of 'undo'? Or do you enjoy it when Build crashes and looses your work? I know I sure as hell didn't which is why I wanted this feature.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I never lose anything in Build. As soon as I have built something I want to save, I hit ESC-S, it's quite easy to do, you'd better try... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well don't then. Christ - no one has a gun to your head.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't worry I don't! (please, don't shoot...) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Those are Duke specific classes for actors remember?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Again that is Duke specific.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Again that is game specific.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Again...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So you think they're useless then? Sorry, I won't use those functions anymore... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- F6: Map name and next tag I am pretty sure this is a different key.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's F6. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- F6 (if highlighted sprite): Sector effector help page - F7 (if cursor in a valid space): sector tags help page Ugh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Very handy! Couldn't live without them. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>F8 / F9: search option (sprite / sector) '+3: sprite label display mode Again I'm pretty certain this is a different key.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You'd better believe me. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I also noticed actors always face you in Mapster, while they are displayed in their right orientation in Build (VERY annoying!) Ugh. No. Certain actors are given their action animations in Build. This is again Duke specific.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Surely pointless then... Poor Ken Silverman! Why did he implement that?! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You clearly don't get that this is not supposed to be Build. If it were just a carbon copy there'd be no reason to use it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You clearly don't get that I have no reason to replace Build to half-a-Build! (I've read here and there it was a good Build replacement...)

06-23-2001, 08:42 AM	#57
Mblackwell	Re: Why bother with Build? Those game specific functions don't mean sh** when building levels for a TC. I've never had problems with the tail thing, and YES it IS a bug in build that your starting position is sometimes changed. You obviously don't build as complex of maps as I do, because it gets to be a problem after awhile. Oh, and about the crashing... so your saying you've never gone to look at something in 2D or 3D mode that you just spent a long time doing, maybe even hours (cough curved surfaces cough) and then had build suddelny crash one you? Well gee, you must be wonder boy with the special BUILD powers..... oooooooooooo look him go! [img]smilies/dopefish.gif[/img] Anyways, all those backup maps allow you to go to previous versions of a map if there's errors.... and you know.... there's this little thing you can do called "select the files and press SHIFT-DELETE" which will wipe them from your computer. Since you are obviously new to this concept I'll explain it: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Click on a file <LI>Hold CTRL <LI>Click on any other items you wish to select (keep holding CTRL) <LI>Let go of CTRL and Press SHIFT <LI>While still holding SHIFT press DELETE <LI>When the message box pops up, click OK <LI>LOOK! YOU'VE JUST DELETED SOME FILES![/list] I hope this explaination has helped you in your further use of an "Operating System". __________________ I don't wanna be like other people are Don't wanna own a key, don't wanna wash my car Don't wanna have to work like other people do I want it to be free, I want it to be true Eduke32.com : The Rejected Applications : The Meadhall of the Comitatus

06-23-2001, 08:45 AM	#58
Mblackwell	Re: Why bother with Build? Oh, and ken didn't implement those features in build.... 3DRealms did. Ken merely helped with the engine, and gave them code. Look at his website before you speak of him again. __________________ I don't wanna be like other people are Don't wanna own a key, don't wanna wash my car Don't wanna have to work like other people do I want it to be free, I want it to be true Eduke32.com : The Rejected Applications : The Meadhall of the Comitatus

06-23-2001, 09:03 AM	#59
Phoenix	Re: Why bother with Build? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim: You're pathetic Cyborg! Still trying to proof you can't be wrong, and others are just idiot! You clearly don't get that I have no reason to replace Build to half-a-Build! (I've read here and there it was a good Build replacement...)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Any one can call me newbie, geek, nerd or Superdork, never ever ever idiot! Ken Silverman programmed Build specifically for the original Duke mapping and game design staff. TerminX is programming Mapster for today’s mappers and TC makers, and their needs. This is the biggest plus. Therefore only short sighted and small-minded people would overlook that fact and continue arguing in favor of a static program. Yet, you may stay with Build, there is no law saying you must go and meet the future. __________________ SST Files

06-23-2001, 01:04 PM	#60
Jim	Re: Why bother with Build? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>YES it IS a bug in build that your starting position is sometimes changed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe it's been fixed in the Atomic version then. I never ever seen that! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh, and about the crashing... so your saying you've never gone to look at something in 2D or 3D mode that you just spent a long time doing, maybe even hours (cough curved surfaces cough) and then had build suddelny crash one you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok. I know curved surfaces may crash Build sometimes. I always save the board before I start some. But I know it may happen at any time anyway. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Since you are obviously new to this concept I'll explain it: I hope this explaination has helped you in your further use of an "Operating System".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now let me teach you some smarter things: del AUTO.map (or erase AUTO.map) or if Dos is too weird for you, then in Windows, use Shift instead of Ctrl when multiselecting sorted filenames. It's way faster! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh, and ken didn't implement those features in build.... 3DRealms did.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok, 3DRealms were wrong then. They added features they didn't need. Obviously. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>TerminX is programming Mapster for today’s mappers and TC makers, and their needs. This is the biggest plus. Therefore only short sighted and small-minded people would overlook that fact and continue arguing in favor of a static program.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree it's commendable! I'd love to find an enhanced Build.

06-24-2001, 12:28 PM	#63
Usurper	Re: Why bother with Build? I swore I replied to this earlier, but apparently the message didn't get processed. Essentially, if you have problems with Mapster, bugs or otherwise, you should be asking TerminX nicely to fix them. His email is on the mapster page at rtcm. You know, you can print out an SE cheat sheet...or scribble one down in about 5 minutes. __________________ Meadhall of the Comitatus \| RTCM