Schadenfreude

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

... "I am sorry i can't talk about DNF," ...

That's not what he should be apologizing for. My post notes the things for which he should be sorry, and for which he has yet to apologize.

[ZuljinRaynor]

Why does he have to apologize though. It's not like he has some civic duty to deliver us a game. No matter how cheated we feel we are, it's only cause of ourselves that we feel that way.

[Monkey Butler]

Zuljin, that's the entire reason that people have expressed schadenfreude. People seem to be happy at DNF/3DR's demise because of GB's lack of apology or contrition. Of course he doesn't strictly owe anybody an apology or an explanation, but his lack of a mea culpa of ANY kind just pisses off fans and former fans even more, because it gives the impression that he doesn't feel like he screwed up at all, especially because in the few statements he has released he's basically blamed T2 for not giving him free money. He's been extremely short with the fans for over a decade, and the lack of a specific apology or explanation as to what happened just encourages people to dance on Duke's grave.

[ReadOnly]

Why does it always come to "3dr never owed us anything"? It's like we're idiots ourselves for waiting for a game from the incompetent studio. So, screw us for doing that. We never deserved anything anyway.

Well... we actually are idiots. So kudos to George for not apologizing to a bunch of losers.

[ZuljinRaynor]

Seriously, it's just a game. It's not the end of the world. That's why I don't get it. Sure I spent 12 years waiting for it too. But I'm not crying over it.

[ReadOnly]

Because you're strong and can deal with this.

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by ZuljinRaynor

Seriously, it's just a game.

I completely agree 100% with every person that has ever said that, including you, friend. That is absolutely a true statement, and I don't think any video game should be taken seriously unless one's economic well-being depends on it, as was the case with 3D Realms.

It's not so much the game that bugs me as much as George himself, and his behavior towards other people and the harm he caused for the people he had to lay off.

[MrBlackCat]

Just read this thread... wow!
It is just a game. While some people seem angry about “not getting the game”, I think this… “With great arrogance comes great responsibility.” There is a huge difference between confidence and arrogance. The 3D Realms “way” in my opinion seems to have evolved from confidence to arrogance. The “failure” of DNF is the manifestation of this, in my opinion.
Even though in the past I stated that “they don’t owe us anything”, I would like to withdraw that statement at least to some extent. After some thought, I no longer see it as quite so Black and White. To me there is a gray area where the above stated confidence/arrogance carries something like a verbal agreement I will call it.
WID to me is a bit cocky if nothing else. We are customers. I have a responsibility to my customers even though technically I don’t “owe them anything.” Yes?
With that said, I feel justified in my disappointment with the failure(s) here. What each of us feel is our business, but how we react to those feelings defines our character and also should carry some responsibility in my opinion. I disagree with all the personal attacks. I guess I don’t believe in the use of “venting” to excuse pointless attacks on peoples and situations that most of us know little of.

MrBlackCat

[Onebullit]

Originally Posted by ReadOnly

Why does it always come to "3dr never owed us anything"? It's like we're idiots ourselves for waiting for a game from the incompetent studio. So, screw us for doing that. We never deserved anything anyway.

Well... we actually are idiots. So kudos to George for not apologizing to a bunch of losers.

No problem ..... You think after all this if DNF came out, people will buy this like crazy or what? aaahahaha. The sucker that GB is knows that no1 has any intrest anymore after all that happened and will not take a chance with DNF i tell you this, OR his a SUPERFOOL. Maybe he will sell it to an other company to finish it and make money like that and DNF may be released, BUT ..... what smart company would buy DNF and release it under the same name? A competent company would make the DNF that we saw (leaked stuff) in about 2-3 years time with a capable group of devloppers. So .... why would they buy this code ?? And for howmuch ?? 20 million $ ??

Peace,

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by kj_57701

3DR does not own us anything.

Actually yes they do. We the customers decide wether a company will do good or not. The most important thing a business does to stay alive is to keep thier customers happy and if they fail to do that they lose sales and ultimately go bankrupt.

The motto that modern gamers have is depressing:

"We are trash, we are nothing. we are just walking talking wallets of stupidity".

Modern gamers are borderline goths.

Gamers are the life blood of the gaming industry, without us it will collapse.

[Zombie Star]

I want a DNF demo plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

Actually yes they do. We the customers decide wether a company will do good or not. The most important thing a business does to stay alive is to keep thier customers happy and if they fail to do that they lose sales and ultimately go bankrupt.

The motto that modern gamers have is depressing:

"We are trash, we are nothing. we are just walking talking wallets of stupidity".

Modern gamers are borderline goths.

Gamers are the life blood of the gaming industry, without us it will collapse.

agree

[Feared]

A demo certainly would be nice.
But the chance's of that ( especially since Take Two is Suing ) are thinner than what you can piss.

[ReadOnly]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

"We are trash, we are nothing. we are just walking talking wallets of stupidity".

Modern gamers are borderline goths.

Sounds more like punks than goths to me...

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by ReadOnly

Sounds more like punks than goths to me...

Whatever you like to call them but modern art and modern gamers have one thing in common:

They both suck when compared to thier past counter parts.



Yes that is modern art btw. I think it's called to many white people lol.

[Onebullit]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

Whatever you like to call them but modern art and modern gamers have one thing in common:

They both suck when compared to thier past counter parts.



Yes that is modern art btw. I think it's called to many white people lol.

If that is art, i am Santa Claus.

[Feared]

Originally Posted by Onebullit

If that is art, i am Santa Claus.

That's kind of his point, I could take a picture of my poo and call it art these day's.

I know there is one guy who vomit's on canvases and gets a straw to push it around.
He call's him self a artist as well.

Sad really.

[Duke's New Chainsaw]

Doesn't that guy know how many starving artists are out there?!

[kj_57701]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

Actually yes they do.

Sounds like you and everybody that is being "owned" something from 3DR should sue them for stealing and see how far it will take you. We just have a difference in opinion to what "owning" means. If you invest the interest and time into something that is not giving you satisfaction in the end, then sorry, yes, you've probably been a fool. But that does not mean we're losers. We've all banked on the wrong horse from time to time. I'll simply swallow the disappointment in the fact that in the end they failed to give us DNF in all those years we've been waiting! Nothing is guaranteed in life and it turns out that none of us should have put in any emotion and efforts into this crap. I've made my share of bad deals, but hey, I'll take it on the chin and move on. It does not seem to me that 3DR was blocked from finishing this game sometime in the last 12 years. I can totally understand all the sentiment and emotion regarding the whole WID and not deliver situation. I'll just wait on the fence for the fallout of the lawsuit. There's still a hope that we'll see DNF or derivative some day in the future.

*sigh*, I'd would much more prefer to rave about this awesome game that we all love and want to play over and over again. It's too sad to see us fans of Duke Nukem bicker about stuff we have no control over

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Feared

That's kind of his point, I could take a picture of my poo and call it art these day's.

Rose-tinted spectacles. That's pretty much always been the case. There have always been rich idiots who will buy art because they believe that they get it and you don't. Ever since the invention of art.

[slapdaddy06]

I half agree with you yatta, but that "arrogant American" comment is utter BS. Try to keep politics out, even if you're making an analogy. It tends to make a lot of people upset and makes you seem less potent and more childish in your arguments.

Haven't logged in here in a while but had to say something to the "Obama fanboy" there. Anyhow, hi everyone and I don't really feel any animosity towards 3DR or any single employee there....don't really care any longer. It'd be nice to see it come out some day...pretty funny though considering DX11 is on the way now. Even if work resumed, there'd more than likely be another engine change. lol

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by Commando Nukem

It isnt arrogance to be angered by our President using his power to get favors for his state.....

Originally Posted by slapdaddy06

I half agree with you yatta, but that "arrogant American" comment is utter BS. Try to keep politics out, even if you're making an analogy. It tends to make a lot of people upset and makes you seem less potent and more childish in your arguments.

Haven't logged in here in a while but had to say something to the "Obama fanboy" there. Anyhow, hi everyone and I don't really feel any animosity towards 3DR or any single employee there....don't really care any longer. It'd be nice to see it come out some day...pretty funny though considering DX11 is on the way now. Even if work resumed, there'd more than likely be another engine change. lol

Let me just be clear here that I understand people may not share my political views, but at the moment I was writing my post, an effective political analogy came to my mind. It was effective because it got my point across about DNF's development. I apologize if it threw some of you off.

Otherwise, politics is NOT the subject of this thread, nor does it contribute to the health of our discussion. It was a comparison for the sake of helping you understand my point about the failure of DNF.

If you or anyone else is interested in talking about Obama or Rush Limbaugh, post a message to my profile instead. Thanks!

[cladinshadows]

It's been quite a while since I've posted anything here and, for the most part, I've lurked on and off over the years. When this game was announced 12 years ago I was 9. That in and of itself is thought-provoking to me. I can think of graduating high school, working toward degrees, dating for the first time...such a myriad of firsts. All the while I've been thinking about this game haha. But really, in the grand scheme of things I've grown disinterested.
It broke my heart a tad when the company fired it's staff but in all honesty it happened a lot later than I'd expected. For years I've been wondering how much longer the company could possibly keep it's doors open. As far as I'm concerned, I don't really care whether I ever see the game *shrugs*, doesn't matter anymore. I'll buy it if it ever comes out but, my life will go on. I'm seriousely surprised by everyone talking about what's 'owed' to them for waiting...waiting takes no effort. None. In fact, I can work a job or write a song or get laid etc. while I wait. Why would I feel owed anything for something I've not paid for? 3DR are not a service based company like a tire shop; they design games. Oh well, this one will be post-poned *shrugs*, after this long what's really the bother(?) - just play something else, work your jobs, save your cash -or- if you'd really like to be part of the solution, donate funds or dedicate time to helping fix things (if ya can do the game dev thing), otherwise I don't think any of these conversations hold any sort of value. Oh well: a lowly students opinion.

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by cladinshadows

I'm seriousely surprised by everyone talking about what's 'owed' to them for waiting...waiting takes no effort.

From one student to another--I'll have to tell you that there were things noted with respect to that "wait" that did take effort.

All the fan projects over the years have been part of the wait, but you're right--it's not the wait that's the issue. It's the incandescent disappointment that has blinded every one of us that robs us of what we are owed as customers, loyal fans, and supporters. I highly recommend you read all my posts in this thread thoroughly, as I've already outlined this earlier.

[cladinshadows]

The fan projects undoubtedly offered less profits than you surmise, and unless you can provide evidence of this I view your statistics as a complete fabrication. I read the thread thoroughly before I commented; I just don't think anything you've said here holds much weight.

I enjoyed the 3d face-lift that our wonderful forum members made (and was outraged when those cell phone game devs stole some of the artwork) but I find it hard to believe that thousands of dollars found their way to 3DR as a result of a free project for a game that had been out since 1996. Even if that were the case, the only thing 3DR would owe anyone for those projects would be the supposed profit (and even that I disagree with). So what, refund the purchase of maybe 30-40 games?

I'm upset about how things have panned out but to believe that because people creating free content for a game they love somehow translates to stock in the company or that company's future releases is ridiculous. No one makes a mod believing they'll recieve something in return other than something for their resum'e in the future. Should the creators of Black Mesa Source be owed another Half-Life? Absolutely not. Should I be owed another Command and Conquer for creating Tib Sun mods back in the day? No way - and in fact I'd prefer EA stop developing them.

See where I'm coming from?

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by cladinshadows

The fan projects undoubtedly offered less profits than you surmise, and unless you can provide evidence of this I view your statistics as a complete fabrication. I read the thread thoroughly before I commented; I just don't think anything you've said here holds much weight.

I enjoyed the 3d face-lift that our wonderful forum members made (and was outraged when those cell phone game devs stole some of the artwork) but I find it hard to believe that thousands of dollars found their way to 3DR as a result of a free project for a game that had been out since 1996. Even if that were the case, the only thing 3DR would owe anyone for those projects would be the supposed profit (and even that I disagree with). So what, refund the purchase of maybe 30-40 games?

My statistics are not a fabrication. Jonof, who developed a modern port for Duke Nukem 3D, is mentioned in the credits for the XBLA version of the game. The XBLA version of Duke Nukem 3D generated $400,000 of profits JUST IN ITS FIRST THREE DAYS of release. Since Jonof's work on the new engine was a major component in the development of the Xbox 360 port, his work alone is a prime example of the affortmentioned fan work I talked about in my earlier posts.

Other fan works like the HRP, Duke4.net, EDuke32, and the Yang multiplayer projects are just examples of common courtesy and support from the fans.

There's your evidence. If you call that fabrication, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm upset about how things have panned out but to believe that because people creating free content for a game they love somehow translates to stock in the company or that company's future releases is ridiculous. No one makes a mod believing they'll recieve something in return other than something for their resum'e in the future. Should the creators of Black Mesa Source be owed another Half-Life? Absolutely not. Should I be owed another Command and Conquer for creating Tib Sun mods back in the day? No way - and in fact I'd prefer EA stop developing them.

You're right. Common courtesy doesn't entitle someone to anything, but the reciprocation of common courtesy is a foundation for civility.

The fans didn't physically have to receive something, but GB could have thrown us a bone before his lawsuit tore his vocal chords. Posting thumbnails and constant failures to live up to his promise are not actions that count as common courtesy.

Then there is the issue of mass departures in 2006 and the whole goddamn team falling apart before our eyes this year--you can make your own sense out of that, but if you don't see the problem, we'll once again have to agree to disagree.

With that being said, I think you're focusing a little too much on only a single aspect of my argument. I'm not just fighting for the fans here. The bigger picture is the fact that 3D Realms' failure is, allegedly and in my opinion, the fault of the abomination that is George Broussard.

[Monkey Butler]

Exactly. It's been said over and over again (a pretty common theme in this forum) - 3DR owe us nothing. Similarly, we owe them nothing. It's well within a fan's right to be mad as hell if they want to be. 3DR cancelled Christmas in a lot of peoples' minds, so being pissed off is totally understandable.

[cladinshadows]

Originally Posted by Yatta

My statistics are not a fabrication. Jonof, who developed a modern port for Duke Nukem 3D, is mentioned in the credits for the XBLA version of the game. The XBLA version of Duke Nukem 3D generated $400,000 of profits JUST IN ITS FIRST THREE DAYS of release. Since Jonof's work on the new engine was a major component in the development of the Xbox 360 port, his work alone is a prime example of the affortmentioned fan work I talked about in my earlier posts.

Other fan works like the HRP, Duke4.net, EDuke32, and the Yang multiplayer projects are just examples of common courtesy and support from the fans.

There's your evidence. If you call that fabrication, we'll just have to agree to disagree.



You're right. Common courtesy doesn't entitle someone to anything, but the reciprocation of common courtesy is a foundation for civility.

The fans didn't physically have to receive something, but GB could have thrown us a bone before his lawsuit tore his vocal chords. Posting thumbnails and constant failures to live up to his promise are not actions that count as common courtesy.

Then there is the issue of mass departures in 2006 and the whole goddamn team falling apart before our eyes this year--you can make your own sense out of that, but if you don't see the problem, we'll once again have to agree to disagree.

With that being said, I think you're focusing a little too much on only a single aspect of my argument. I'm not just fighting for the fans here. The bigger picture is the fact that 3D Realms' failure is, allegedly and in my opinion, the fault of the abomination that is George Broussard.

I find it odd that Jonof's port would be required to run Duke3d on an OS rooted in Windows 2000 (though a variant). Has he commented on whether he specifically recieved any funds for his work in relation to the Xbox port? As far as the HRP goes I see no reason why it's even mentioned here (Yes, I'm drawing a distinction between the 3d face-lift and Jonof. While they're tightly bound, they are not one and the same).

I agree with you about the mismanagement; I was merely commenting on the strange sense of entitlement people here seem to have for putting no work into producing any tangible product. If people being angry about this was all I cared about then I would have commented back when the place shut it's doors - but that's not the case.

[WoodenSword]

Unless you think that GB had a cunning plan to screw us and screw his employees for his personal benefit, i can't really understand this hate.

Because if GB is just incompetent / very ambitious /very stubborn , there is not much to be done now, is there? Accept people the way they are

Btw, i REALLY think that 3d realms (and not just GB) made all the mistakes you are saying, BUT 3d realms realized its mistakes in the very end (2007 and after). But it was too late and too unlucky. That's all. So there is not really any point for these arguments anymore. THEY KNOW THEIR MISTAKES.

p.s. please don't say about the poker thing argument again. Yes it was tasteless but this had nothing to do with DNF development/future.


My problem with 3d realms is other: OK they can't talk about DNF now,they made mistakes,etc,etc.

Is 3drealms only about DNF?? Didn't Scott say something about 11 projects (or so?) ? Why does the site feel abandoned? Why no news? aren't the 11 projects or other savings enough to support the salary of key 3drealms employees for at least a year ( Joe or Blum for example)?

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by cladinshadows

I find it odd that Jonof's port would be required to run Duke3d on an OS rooted in Windows 2000 (though a variant). Has he commented on whether he specifically recieved any funds for his work in relation to the Xbox port? As far as the HRP goes I see no reason why it's even mentioned here (Yes, I'm drawing a distinction between the 3d face-lift and Jonof. While they're tightly bound, they are not one and the same).

I agree with you about the mismanagement; I was merely commenting on the strange sense of entitlement people here seem to have for putting no work into producing any tangible product. If people being angry about this was all I cared about then I would have commented back when the place shut it's doors - but that's not the case.

For the record, I replied thoroughly to this post but the moderators deleted it.

I'm done posting in this thread. Kind of pointless to participate in a discussion if you know your posts are going to start disappearing.

[Onebullit]

Originally Posted by Yatta

For the record, I replied thoroughly to this post but the moderators deleted it.

I'm done posting in this thread. Kind of pointless to participate in a discussion if you know your posts are going to start disappearing.

Shame on you moderators !!!

[Scotty]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

<snip>

Is 3drealms only about DNF?? Didn't Scott say something about 11 projects (or so?) ? Why does the site feel abandoned? Why no news? aren't the 11 projects or other savings enough to support the salary of key 3drealms employees for at least a year ( Joe or Blum for example)?

3DR stated repeatedly in the past that future "WID" projects would not even be announced until enough was completed to have something to show.

If they do have 11 projects going, that would represent a cash burn until at least one of them shipped, which, if anything, may have caused the layoffs to happen sooner rather than later.

As we've had a huge bear market rally (and possibly the beginning of the next bull market) in stocks off the March bottom, hopefully 3DR has been able to grow whatever capital they had left after putting DNF on the back burner.

[WoodenSword]

post deleted
nevermind...

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

Is 3drealms only about DNF?? Didn't Scott say something about 11 projects (or so?) ? Why does the site feel abandoned? Why no news? aren't the 11 projects or other savings enough to support the salary of key 3drealms employees for at least a year ( Joe or Blum for example)?

Considering that most people know 3D Realms for Duke nukem 3D and the only thing that's being released from them lately is Duke nukem forever. So yes, 3D Realms is only about Duke nukem and DNF. Walk into a game store and ask any pc player have they heard of 3D Realms. The usual answers are either:

"Hell ya I heard of them, they made Duke nukem 3D"

Or

"Yea I heard of 3D Realms. They are those guys that are making Duke nukem forever"

[Saul]

Wow. This whole thread is sad.

George's twitter is personal. It's not the 3DR website. When George leaves work he takes off his 3DR hat and puts on his "just George" hat. What he does in that time is irrelevant. Taking what's on his personal twitter and then bringing it over to his company's forum is in very poor taste, not what George does in his own time.

Nextly, criticizing someone so harshly without having any details, let alone knowing them or walking in their shoes is pathetic. Perhaps George's way of dealing with stress is gambling. What he does with his own money is up to him; this is not company money and he has no obligation to fund employees with his own money... he probably can't even do that legally, and it would probably get him into trouble anyway.

Besides that, there may be absolutely no point in continuing development for another month under these circumstances. Lawsuits tend to throw wrenches into gears.

[Yatta]

You're wrong. Twitter is a public thing. There's more to this but I've been through arguments like this before and I don't like fighting with other members here, because I love everyone here and I don't want to make enemies. Also, maybe I HAVE been in George's shoes. I know more about him than the average guy here.

I'm really going to keep this short because I don't know when the mods will go on a post deletion rampage again.

[joey007]

Is there EVER going to be any news, (no suprise) but I'm having my doubts now....

[ReadOnly]

Originally Posted by Saul

George's twitter is personal. It's not the 3DR website. When George leaves work he takes off his 3DR hat and puts on his "just George" hat. What he does in that time is irrelevant. Taking what's on his personal twitter and then bringing it over to his company's forum is in very poor taste, not what George does in his own time.

George himself started a topic in DNF subforum with the link to his twitter.

Besides that, there may be absolutely no point in continuing development for another month under these circumstances. Lawsuits tend to throw wrenches into gears.

You seem to not fully understand/know why and when Take-Two sued 3DR. They sued only after the news about closure of 3DR as a development studio. Thus they didn't throw wrenches into gears since there were no gears left.

[SpinX]

all the money and effort lost... the only way to make another triple AAA Duke fps, is to start a new company and start from scratch... like petroglyph did and runic games did...

hope to gather the confidence and money from a good publisher and just start organised and have the design choises back from the 2001 version... not that odd looking 2009 stuff...

and the whole publish duke nukem forever stuff with take two: dear god, what a horrible agreement that must have been... written on a hamburger napkin or something like that... let duke nukem forever die in court and start with a new and innovative duke FPS...

[cladinshadows]

Originally Posted by Yatta

For the record, I replied thoroughly to this post but the moderators deleted it.

I'm done posting in this thread. Kind of pointless to participate in a discussion if you know your posts are going to start disappearing.

lol, no worries. I'm pretty sure I'm in the wrong here anyways. I still feel slightly the same way, but I wasn't aware of Jonof's pseudo-involvement in XBox Live being that I hate Xbox360 and didn't see it. Thanks for your information. If you'd like to continue the discussion without Moderators feel free to PM me.

[Yatta]

No, you're not wrong. You just have a lot compassion and you seem like a nice guy, and I felt you were going a little easy on 3DR.