DNF Multiplayer

[colmtourque]

You know that has been something missing a lot of games.

Also a good rocket DM (complete with that one well hidden nuke...I know that was more shadow warrior but always wanted to see it in Duke)

Speaking of Duke there used to be a multiplayer level call 'Jail', anyone seen it.

[roryok]

Micki! said:

Yeah Capture the Babe is one of the MP mode suggestions...

Are there others..?! I really can't find anything that fits to a Duke game...

Capture the babe! that would totally rock. Like CTF, say you're trying to hide in a corner of the opposition base, and then your babe starts babbling about something, and gives away your position!

[Micki!]

roryok said:

Capture the babe! that would totally rock. Like CTF, say you're trying to hide in a corner of the opposition base, and then your babe starts babbling about something, and gives away your position!

Hehe... Makes you wish you were'nt the carrier...

[hell-angel]

roryok said:

Capture the babe! that would totally rock. Like CTF, say you're trying to hide in a corner of the opposition base, and then your babe starts babbling about something, and gives away your position!

I definately like that idea.

edit: I think it should be "save the babe" because Duke doesn't capture the babes, he saves them.

[Micki!]

I forgot to add this in my first post:
I'm also sick of games that get a lower score in reviews, just because the MP part...

There HAS to be SOMETHING new in there...

[hell-angel]

I hear ya, or how about reviewers who only like those real-life shooters and then review a game like quake4 (or DNF) and give it a low score because it's not real enough or not innovating enough.

(I don't think there are enough images allowed to accurately describe my opinion about that. )

[Micki!]

hell-angel said:
I hear ya, or how about reviewers who only like those real-life shooters and then review a game like quake4 (or DNF) and give it a low score because it's not real enough or not innovating enough.

(I don't think there are enough images allowed to accurately describe my opinion about that. )

I know...
It's stupid that people review games by content...
In reality, it's all about the game being funny/interresting/feels good...

And multiplayer..! If some game gets 9/10 because the singleplayer rocked, but the Multiplayer sucked, would it then mean that the game would have gotten 10/10 because ONLY the singleplayer was there with no MP, since it doesn't contain any bad stuff..?! (MP that is)...
It bothers me, because some reviewers actually rate games that way...

A good Example is the Battlefield Games... The 'singleplayer' is actually nothing special... It's more like a 'training ground'... But still, people complain about the AI being too stupid... of course it is... IT'S A FRIGGIN' DEDICATED MULTIPLAYER GAME..! what did people expect from a MP ONLY game..?!

Anyways... that was all...

I hope they do the multiplayer part of DNF great. I have played to many with mediocre multiplayer game (Doom 3, Unreal Tourment, CoD, even BF2 after a few days, etc...). The best ones I have played are...

1-2) Counterstrike (yeah, I know, I put it up 2 times)
3) MoHAA
4-99) None!

However I havn't played any DN multiplayer game.

Why are CS so great? It's because it has interresting challanging objectives, in a good natural way.

1) There are more than one way to win the map (2 places to plant a bomb for example) which naturally spread out players around the map. This is very well done in many CS and in some MoHAA maps. Let us be able to solve objectives in 2 or max 3 ways.

2) The objectives feel real in CS and MoHAA, and aren't patetic capture the boring unatural flag or holding the base for 30s to capture it (like in BF2) while the opposite team capture another base of yours, so it becomes a running around in circle syndrome (as in UT and BF2).

3) Tactical combat... You don't feel it's a rush toward your goal all the time so it in the end feels very repetive. You need to feel that you can calm down a little too. You feel that in CS because valve lets you have an advantage while moving slowly.

4) You need in a natural way take a break so you can chat a little, like in CS or MoHAA objectives. If you die you need to wait until the map is finished.

5) Smaller interresting maps countra large one where you need to run alot or even use vehicles. Large maps becomes more than often overwhelming. I hope 3Drealms stay with smaller maps.


Suggestions on objectives, just to give you some ideas...
=======================================

* Open a locked door (if you have the key) so you can destroy the science lab or factory. A random player of opposite team has the key which you can pick up if you kill him, but you must do it before any other enemy pick it up of course. You can also open it by planting a bomb there. An ammo room have probably the tools you need for that. 2 NPC can also have the keys so not everyone are in the same place, so people are naturally spread out.

* Open up 1 of 2 safes and steal the document, by placing a bomb (if you fetch enough explosives from the ammo room which is probably heavily guarded) or by capture 1 of 2 NPC (located at different places) which the opposite team must guard and bring him to the safe he owns which he is forced to open for you. If any team kill him that team loose. The one who have the document must after that succeed to reach one location.

* Capture at least 1 of 2 enemy NPC scientists and bring them to 1 of 2 vehicles (scientists and vehicles are located at different places). The team who kills a scientist loose of course.

* Destroy a bridge by either planting bombs in 1 of 2 places (or by capture an adjacent smaller ship (and pull a lever to navigate the ship forward) so it crashes and destroys the bridge).

* Destroy 1 of 2 heavy weapon system, radar or whatever.

* Liberate at least 1 of 2 NPC prisoners.


Other stuffs...
==========

"Drugs" which we can use with different effects, like you grow so you becomes really big and strong (bonus to close combat damage and armor) but easier to hit.

[roryok]

Micki! said:
edit: I think it should be "save the babe" because Duke doesn't capture the babes, he saves them.

Yes. My Bad.

Save the babe! Hear hear!

[JackpotDen]

roryok said:

Capture the babe! that would totally rock. Like CTF, say you're trying to hide in a corner of the opposition base, and then your babe starts babbling about something, and gives away your position!

Capture the babe was done on postal 2

[Micki!]

roryok said:

Yes. My Bad.

Save the babe! Hear hear!

I didn't say that...
You can tell that by the 2 missing peiods in the end... And also, there's no smiley...

[roryok]

Micki! said:
I didn't say that...
You can tell that by the 2 missing peiods in the end... And also, there's no smiley...

Yeah Sorry about that. I deleted the wrong set of quote brackets!

me = n00b!

And The Lord saidLet there be n00bs, and give them a break if they make the odd mistake here or there!

[Micki!]

roryok said:

Haha..!
But seriously, does anyone else care about the MP having some of DNF's potential gameplay in it..?!

[roryok]

Micki! said:
But seriously, does anyone else care about the MP having some of DNF's potential gameplay in it..?!

Hell yeah, I'm tired of developers skimping on the multiplayer. Hell, max payne didn't even HAVE multiplayer. Thats just criminal in this day.

There are two things that should really be laboured on in the multiplayer:

1) Playability. Original game types are all well and good, but if the basic gametypes (DM/TDM/CTF/AS) aren't properly implemented, all the extra gametypes in the world don't matter a toss. Having said that, I'm confident 3dr will deliver on this aspect, considering they practically invented deathmatch with dn3d

2) User Maps. Nowadays every FPS seems to have a map editor released with it, and thats a good thing. There was a time when only dn3d & unreal had decent development tools available. Epic saw a niche and went for it, and it paid off big time. The tools are extensive, powerful and well supported, and UT fanmade content quality often surpasses that of some development studios as a result. 3dr needs to encourage fan content as much as possible. Shouldn't be hard since they're using the epic tools to begin with!

Hell, 3dr practically invented Deathmatch with dn3d

[Micki!]

roryok said:

Hell yeah, I'm tired of developers skimping on the multiplayer. Hell, max payne didn't even HAVE multiplayer. Thats just criminal in this day.

There are two things that should really be laboured on in the multiplayer:

1) Playability. Original game types are all well and good, but if the basic gametypes (DM/TDM/CTF/AS) aren't properly implemented, all the extra gametypes in the world don't matter a toss. Having said that, I'm confident 3dr will deliver on this aspect, considering they practically invented deathmatch with dn3d

2) User Maps. Nowadays every FPS seems to have a map editor released with it, and thats a good thing. There was a time when only dn3d & unreal had decent development tools available. Epic saw a niche and went for it, and it paid off big time. The tools are extensive, powerful and well supported, and UT fanmade content quality often surpasses that of some development studios as a result. 3dr needs to encourage fan content as much as possible. Shouldn't be hard since they're using the epic tools to begin with!

Hell, 3dr practically invented Deathmatch with dn3d

I was actually refering to the MP part containing some stuff from the SP, to make it different ... (Interactivity in MP, that would rock )

But your statement isn't out of topic at least...

[roryok]

Micki! said:
I was actually refering to the MP part containing some stuff from the SP, to make it different ... (Interactivity in MP, that would rock )

But your statement isn't out of topic at least...

Oh - I thought you said MP should have gameplay!

My bad. Again.

I guess I'm just a bad man....

As for interactivity in MP...
Yeah that'd be awesome.

[Micki!]

roryok said:

Oh - I thought you said MP should have gameplay!

Don't wory... Interactivity, is a part of the gameplay... So it's not completely wrong...
I'd just love to see what stuff that could be done in MP battles...
I can alredy imagine this to happen:
---
Level: Hollywood Holocaust

*Palyer 1 and Player 2 are watching a movie...*
Player1: "Hey, go get some popcorns P2"
Player 2: "Whaa..!? Not now, were in middle the best part of the movie..!"
Player 1: "I don't care, it's your turn to buy some..."
Player 2: "No way in hell i'm gonna miss this part... Get it yourself..!"
Player 1: "Hey, we made a deal by watching this movie together, instead of fragging each other... I payd a big bucket of popcorn for you, you better get mine now..!"
Player 2: "Make me, it's not like you're.."
*BOOM!!!*
**Player 1 frags Player 2 with a pipebomb**
*player 2 Spawns at Popcorn machine*
Player 2: "Crap..!"
---
I'd love to record that event..!

[hell-angel]

Micki! said:

Haha..!
But seriously, does anyone else care about the MP having some of DNF's potential gameplay in it..?!

Yes of course, that's why I said that duke should have save the babe instead of capture the babe.

I do like the line from Postal though:
You have their Ho, get her into bed.

[Micki!]

hell-angel said:

Yes of course, that's why I said that duke should have save the babe instead of capture the babe.

I do like the line from Postal though:
You have their Ho, get her into bed.

Have only tried Postal 2 Demo...

[hell-angel]

Micki! said:
Have only tried Postal 2 Demo...

Well, it's a fun game, not great, but fun.

[roryok]

yeah it had some good ideas alright, but it was just badly made.

[Tim. Just Tim.]

Theres been lots of threads on multiplayer but i dont recall any of them specifically addressing cheating.

anyway what do we know so far?
- no coop
- different modes? possibley capture the babe?
- max players? 32? 64?

I assume that DNF will run quite smoothly online, since it will use netcode at least as good as Unreal's, which in my opinion is the best.

as far as cheating, will there be any steps taken to prevent it ? As far as i know, the only sure-fire way to prevent wall hacks is to perform all the visibility calculations on the server for each client, which I think would be totally impractical.

Is the only real way to prevent cheating to play with people who you know and trust not to be cheating? If thats the case, maybe we should create a DNF forumers clan now for all us hardcore folks who have been patiently wating for this game. If we wait until after the game is realeased, this forum will be full of thousands of noobs and we wont be able to distinguish who the believers are, who were here before the release.

[Montykoro!]

mmmm maybe "punkbuster" ? or similar... then a cheksum for the files? (if you modify someone the cheksum will divert from original...)
Encripted engine? no body can "mod" the engine...

[Little Conqueror]

I've been trying to think of a way to prevent cheating in one of my own games. Checksum seems to be the way to go, as well as permanently making certain variables read-only. I have a long way to go before I can prevent 1337 hax0rz from stopping my game, but 3DR probably is keeping all of this in mind and has people already working on it. I'd rather they not spill the beans on whatever anti-cheatiing mechanisms they use as well.

[Micki!]

I reckon someone would want to make a DNF-Cult server (available for all forum members though) there we could setup rule and such... Like MP clans...

[Tim. Just Tim.]

im not sure what punkbuster is or what it does or how it works,

but for cheats like wallhacks and aimbots, i dont see how you can prevent them. They have to do with manipulating data after its already on your machine.

I have a cheat for counterstrike that you run before starting up the game, and it hooks into the directX graphics code somehow, to draw things differently (transparently for example). It doesnt change any files but rather runs in memory, so I dont know if a checksum would be effective.

The problem with cheats is that the developer doesnt just have to make the game cheatproof for the average gamer. The developer has to make it cheatproof against the smartest and best hackers in the world. Because once one person has figured out how to cheat, anyone is able to cheat.

[Little Conqueror]

Tim. Just Tim. said:
im not sure what punkbuster is or what it does or how it works,

but for cheats like wallhacks and aimbots, i dont see how you can prevent them. They have to do with manipulating data after its already on your machine.

I have a cheat for counterstrike that you run before starting up the game, and it hooks into the directX graphics code somehow, to draw things differently (transparently for example). It doesnt change any files but rather runs in memory, so I dont know if a checksum would be effective.

The problem with cheats is that the developer doesnt just have to make the game cheatproof for the average gamer. The developer has to make it cheatproof against the smartest and best hackers in the world. Because once one person has figured out how to cheat, anyone is able to cheat.

There are ways to protect against memory-resident exploits and hacks. I also would guess that there are ways for a game to forcibly override some of these as well.

[hell-angel]

Little Conqueror said:

There are ways to protect against memory-resident exploits and hacks. I also would guess that there are ways for a game to forcibly override some of these as well.

There is, writing your own rendering code (not utilizing DX and such). But even then it would be a pain. I think that Micki's idea is the best, simple set up a password protected server for trusted players only.

[Micki!]

hell-angel said:

There is, writing your own rendering code (not utilizing DX and such). But even then it would be a pain. I think that Micki's idea is the best, simple set up a password protected server for trusted players only.

I have now quoted you...
You might think it's because you just mentioned me, but that's not quite it...

REMEMBER THE "!"!!!

J/K, imo, this is the ONLY secure way to have a fair game...
It all could be setup privately (MSN, or some chatboard for users only) if we want to make some big meeting...

[ZuljinRaynor]

Sign me up for the Clan.

[Micki!]

ZuljinRaynor said:
Sign me up for the Clan.

Go sign up the cult then...

[ZuljinRaynor]

Micki! said:

Go sign up the cult then...

How do I do that, eh?

[Micki!]

ZuljinRaynor said:

How do I do that, eh?

That's easy... As you may have noticed, some members here have a similar symbol on their avatar... (some have the whole symbol AS avatar like Hell-Angel, Kristian Joensen, or Dudemiester) These people are a member of the cult...

What you have to do, is to add this symbol somewhere on your avatar (like mine is placed down in the corner)
If you want, you can modify it with different colors, or something... (or ask if someone will do it for you) The symbol has to be clear, and noticable... and you van place it anywhere you want... As long as it can be recognized as the cult symbol (text and stuff is not necessary)

Ahem, yeah, we were talking about cheating in multiplayer..?! I still vote for my suggestion as the best solution atm...

[ZuljinRaynor]

Hmm, new HL2 skin idea....

I vote for DukeBuster.

[pec]

Tim. Just Tim. said:
as far as cheating, will there be any steps taken to prevent it ?

There is a bunch of effective anticheat / antihack server mods for Unreal and UT (e.g. Kerberos, Nephthys, Hackbusta 3, UProtect), so I'm sure there will be some skilled Unrealscripters coding ones for DNF too.

Nephthys is a very neat antihack mod for Unreal 1 servers. It is able to detect and automatically block DoS and DDoS attacks!!! It protects Unreal servers from many attacks like (distributed) repetitive join/query attacks, zombie bug attacks and fixes several bugs in the Unreal server network code. It also logs IP addresses and allows moderators to kick or ban players who cause problems.

ZuljinRaynor said:
I vote for DukeBuster.

DukeBuster sounds nice for a name of an anticheat/-hack mod.

[Mr.Sociopath]

need nude cheat

[Kristian Joensen]

"There is a bunch of effective anticheat / antihack server mods for Unreal and UT (e.g. Kerberos, Nephthys, Hackbusta 3, UProtect), so I'm sure there will be some skilled Unrealscripters coding ones for DNF too."

These are written in Unrealscript ? If that is the case they MIGHT be portable to DNF since one of the few things DNF stil uses from the Unreal Engine IS Unrealscript.

[pec]

Kristian Joensen said:
These are written in Unrealscript ? If that is the case they MIGHT be portable to DNF since one of the few things DNF stil uses from the Unreal Engine IS Unrealscript.

Yeah, they're written in Unrealscript.

[EDIT]
However, some of these mods (e.g. hackbusta 3) are stripped down (no script / source code available) and heavily protected from decompilation with unknown techniques.

[pec]

[EDIT]
Okay, for security reasons I won't go into detail how to strip script text from .u mod packages, how to protect mods from decompilation, how to break that protection and other elite stuff. All I can say is that I will try to port some of the best anticheat/-hack mods from Unreal to DNF.....

When the time comes and DNF is gonna be released you can join the project if you think that you have the scripting skillz to assist me.

[Gatinater]

You can't stop cheaters. Not as long as the games are built on easily modified and manipulated software. And since protocall is blind it's easy to spoof.

Punkbuster and other anti cheat programs will work to an extent, but it won't take long for someone to figure out how to overide it or blindside the protocall.

There's people out there that make money on the side by making mods and trainers to help players cheat.

The only reliabe cheat prevention is to play LAN with people you can trust. As it seems within the past few years cheating has exploded.