So what next?

[MrFlibble]

Originally Posted by MrBlackCat

Modernization of a game like Rise of the Triad could be great, but so could almost any of the Apogee games.

TBH, I wouldn't mind the "new" sequels being made on exactly the same old engines (mayhap with a few improvements that can be found in existing source ports). I think that the "tech race" in the video game industry of the past decades has taken away something that was present in the good old days when a game could have several sequels made on exactly the same engine. I'm not following today's gaming trends closely but I've got that feeling that often a game with a real potential for add-ons doesn't get any because the developers are eager to churn out a bigger, better sequel with more bells and whistles than the previous installation in the series.

Originally Posted by MrBlackCat

I would buy most any of the old Apogee IP's converted to 3D, even on the Build engine, just like was done with Duke Nukem to 3D. I already "know" the characters, and to me that is what should have happened all along. When I start thinking of what could have been done with Commander Keen, Monster Bash, Halloween Harry, Bio Menace etc... even Cosmo, Crystal Caves and others could have had 3D versions and additional story written.

Haha, right, the thought of Halloween Harry 3D or Bio Menace 3D had also occurred to me too (not to mention the fact that Halloween Harry already has lots of elements that make him similar to Duke Nukem 3D despite the difference in perspective).

[Scpm]

Originally Posted by MrBlackCat

Modernization of a game like Rise of the Triad could be great, but so could almost any of the Apogee games.

I would buy most any of the old Apogee IP's converted to 3D, even on the Build engine, just like was done with Duke Nukem to 3D. I already "know" the characters, and to me that is what should have happened all along. When I start thinking of what could have been done with Commander Keen, Monster Bash, Halloween Harry, Bio Menace etc... even Cosmo, Crystal Caves and others could have had 3D versions and additional story written. I realize all the IP's aren't directly owned, but back then I am sure something could have been worked out. I try to own every game on the Build Engine... so I would have bought any of these IP's had they been brought to the 3D world.

MrBlackCat

I strongly agree with this. Back in the day, as a kid daydreaming of making games of my own one day, I made up lots of ideas for sequels to Apogee games. I imagined a 3D Major Stryker (ala Star Fox 64 and fleshing out the relationship with his more famous brother), a Crystal Caves sequel (with some competitive single and multi-player elements), a 3D Bio Menace sequel, and a FPS deathmatch game with every Apogee character, where each could use any of the weapons, items, or power-ups featured in their games, and 3D versions of some of the levels from their games.
Looking back at Apogee's list of games, it's a shame that they made so few sequels to any of their games, especially since each one of them had potential.
But one thing I think that modern FPS games are really missing is the sense of exploration that Duke 3D and Shadow Warrior had. I really enjoyed hunting for secrets, trying to interact with everything in the environment (and often being rewarded with at least some kind of response), or just staring at the environments in wonder at the level of detail that went into their design. If anyone could make games like that again, I'd trust 3D Realms to do it.

Originally Posted by MrFlibble

TBH, I wouldn't mind the "new" sequels being made on exactly the same old engines (mayhap with a few improvements that can be found in existing source ports). I think that the "tech race" in the video game industry of the past decades has taken away something that was present in the good old days when a game could have several sequels made on exactly the same engine. I'm not following today's gaming trends closely but I've got that feeling that often a game with a real potential for add-ons doesn't get any because the developers are eager to churn out a bigger, better sequel with more bells and whistles than the previous installation in the series.

I would not mind seeing this either. In fact, they should be made for DOS so that they can easily run on any computer that can run DOSBox. No worries about porting to other OSs.
Then again, there are games like this:
http://www.create-games.com/download.asp?id=6527
http://www.moddb.com/games/wgrealms-2
I feel awfully tempted to do the same thing, to just kind of clone an old Apogee game for the fun of it. If I had the time I would make even my own Build-engine game, like one of those eDuke projects. Maybe one day....

[ZuljinRaynor]

Originally Posted by MrFlibble

I'm not following today's gaming trends closely but I've got that feeling that often a game with a real potential for add-ons doesn't get any because the developers are eager to churn out a bigger, better sequel with more bells and whistles than the previous installation in the series.

It's more because publishers, I would say. Add-ons are reduced to cash grab DLC for the most part. Some companies try to make good add-ons (Bethesda with Fallout 3 and from what they say about Skyrim) and Obsidian (Fallout New Vegas).

[MrFlibble]

Originally Posted by Scpm

Looking back at Apogee's list of games, it's a shame that they made so few sequels to any of their games, especially since each one of them had potential.

Absolutely. But I guess that the "tech race" had already begun back then, and the market demanded the companies to focus on the new trends to stay afloat. I remember reading in some of the Apogee Legacy interviews (IIRC) one of the developers of Halloween Harry saying something along the lines (regarding the title change): "We thought that it was the title that was responsible for lower sales of the game (people thought it was a casual Halloween-themed game), but now looking back I think that the real reason was that side-scrolling games could not compete with Doom."

Originally Posted by Scpm

But one thing I think that modern FPS games are really missing is the sense of exploration that Duke 3D and Shadow Warrior had. I really enjoyed hunting for secrets, trying to interact with everything in the environment (and often being rewarded with at least some kind of response), or just staring at the environments in wonder at the level of detail that went into their design. If anyone could make games like that again, I'd trust 3D Realms to do it.

This is indeed a distinctive feature that seems to have given way to something else entirely in the newer games of the genre. Hunting for secrets in Wolfenstein 3-D or Blake Stone is already lots of fun in itself, in the more technologically sophisticated games like Duke3D secrets have become more intricate and diverse. I don't know if it's the primacy of story-driven gameplay today is to be blamed for the lack of traditional secret-hunting, or it's just that the "mentality" of players has changed (or both). I think that the part of fun in looking for secrets and suchlike stuff was in sharing your findings with other people, speculating on what secrets could be there, spreading wild (and most often unfounded) rumours about secret features and unlockable game modes Today, it takes only a few clicks to find all the details about a game, which takes away part of the fun.

That, and it had been more than once observed that many modern players are unwilling to spend a lot of time (re)playing the single-player mode, and the game industry also does not wish for the players to spend too much time playing a single product over and over again - it's much more profitable if they buy new games as they are produced (of course what I'm talking about here is a simplification to an extent, but it's a considerable tendency these days anyway).

Originally Posted by Scpm

Then again, there are games like this:
http://www.create-games.com/download.asp?id=6527
http://www.moddb.com/games/wgrealms-2

I know about WG Realms, but it's the first time I hear about the Special Agent. In fact, I'm very interested in modern games that are "inspired by" classics but aren't exact remakes (here's a little list I've compiled so far, it's kinda biased in that I pay more attention to the genres and/or games I'm most interested in, but anyway ).

[MrBlackCat]

I'll say it again... if they were still making Add-Ons like Duke Caribbean for the Build Engine, even today, I would still be buying them. I do not get tired of an engine like that. While I can easily observer that most people do, this does not occur with me as you can easily see from my game room. I was playing PacMan on an Atari earlier today... not out of nostalgia, as I never had one when I was younger anyway, I just like them.

I guess as far a "sweet tooth" is concerned, I don't need any eye candy.

MrBlackCat

[MrFlibble]

Originally Posted by MrBlackCat

I guess as far a "sweet tooth" is concerned, I don't need any eye candy.

IMO Duke3D is full of eye candy stuff, just many other Build (and not only Build, in fact!) games of the era are. It's just that many people today seem to have adopted this "Eww, it's not 3D!" attitude for no real reason

[MrBlackCat]

I was thinking more of resolutions and lighting actually... but you are very correct about the 3D vs 2.5D with Sprites. I don't mind sprites one single bit... not even 16 bits.

I am not sure of your context of eye candy, but if you mean the complexity and sheer number of textures and assets (sprite or not) in Duke 3D compared to say DooM/DooM II, I agree that is a really big leap... of course I just was playing Pac-Man on Atari, so how relevant is my view anymore anyway.

Back when Duke Nukem 3D came out, one thing I remember was when playing it with people, or playing it at someone elses house or whatever, almost no-one knew how to set the resolution. I had a VESA compliant card and ran 800x600 from day one. On a recent install, I forgot the setting and could not believe how much difference it makes and how many people never even knew of it as it was not an in-game setting. Duke 3D looks great even on a 19" monitor... to me anyway.

And yes, most all the Build engine games were like that. Some were really bad though, like Witchaven. I LOVED the theme, but when you compare that to what was done with Heretic and HeXen on the DooM engine, WOW! I just really liked the Mystical Magical type FPS's.

MrBlackCat

[crunchy superman]

Yeah, I miss games being games. So much at stake with development & marketing costs as high as they are that most titles need to Michael Bay their way through. Not much room for innovation, taking chances, being complex or just plain fun anymore. Probably inevitable I suppose, but still a shame.

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by crunchy superman

Yeah, I miss games being games. So much at stake with development & marketing costs as high as they are that most titles need to Michael Bay their way through. Not much room for innovation, taking chances, being complex or just plain fun anymore. Probably inevitable I suppose, but still a shame.

Eventually it's gonna change. I think with the new wave of next gen consoles around the corner, it's going to change in certain ways. One of the biggest things giving devs grief right now is working with such outdated hardware.

Also, the indie scene has really been pushing the high-concept ideas in the last many years. So of the most fun I've had have been with the smaller indie titles intersted in trying weird/new things.